A Great Threat To American Civil Liberties
December 6, 2011, Submitted by: Ken Tweet
The 2012 National Defense Authorization Act. A new law passed by the Senate (93 – 7) will open the door for trial-free, indefinite detention of anyone, including American citizens, so long as the government calls them terrorists.
The law would place domestic terror investigations and interrogations into the hands of the military giving armed forces overriding freedom to detain anyone on charges of terrorism and keep him in detention indefinitely without taking him or her to a civil court.
So much for innocent until proven guilty. So much for limited government. What Americans are now facing is quite literally the end of the line. We will either uphold the freedoms baked into our Constitutional Republic, or we will scrap the entire project in the name of security as we wage, endlessly, this futile, costly, and ultimately self-defeating War on Terror.
Source: Forbes.com
The United States Senate voted to preserve a provision in the National Defense Authorization Act (the bill that funds the Pentagon) allowing the U.S. military to pick up and detain, without charges or trial, anyone suspected of terrorism, including American citizens…
Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) said, “What we are talking about here is that Americans could be subjected to life imprisonment. Think about that for a minute. Life imprisonment. Without ever being charged, tried, or convicted of a crime. Without ever having an opportunity to prove your innocence to a judge or a jury of your peers. And without the government ever having to prove your guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I think that denigrates the very foundations of this country.”
Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) said, “it puts every single American citizen at risk.”
The bill grants power to the military to arrest U.S. citizens on American soil and detain them in military prisons forever without offering them the right to legal counsel or even a trial. This isn’t a totally new thing: “dirty bomb” plotter Jose Padilla spent three-and-a-half years as an “enemy combatant” until he was finally charged. But Padilla’s detention was unusual and sparked a huge outcry; the new provisions would standardize his treatment and enable us all to become Jose Padillas.
Sen. Mark Udall (D-CO) tried to kill the provision on indefinite detention with an amendment that required Congressional review of these brand-new military detention powers, but his effort failed 60 votes to 38.
The provision dispenses with Article 3, Section 3 of the Constitution, which provides that nobody can be punished for treason without heightened due process requirements being met.”
The provisions will militarize America even further and—in Graham’s words—”basically say[s] in law for the first time that the homeland is part of the battlefield.” Your backyard is a microcosm of the war on terror. Just think of that every time you host a barbecue.
Source: Gawker.com
The 7 who voted no to the violations of the Bill of Rights are: Rand Paul, Tom Coburn, Mike Lee, Bernie Sanders, Tom Harkin, Ron Wyden, and Jeff Merkley.
An important distinction historically has been made between the manner in which Americans at home are treated during wartime, and the manner in which enemy combatants overseas are handled. After the Civil War, the law has maintained that the U.S. military must not be used on American soil to police, surveil, track, arrest, or detain U.S. citizens. The term ‘enemy combatant’ has been reserved for soldiers on the field of battle–in areas other than the homeland–who in time of war can be detained and held indefinitely until the state of war is resolved.
Bill S 1867 would change that completely.
language contained in other portions of the bill raise serious doubts concerning the new law’s ability to prevent a President from misuse of power in that regard.
For example, a U.S. citizens who has merely stored up more than 7 days of non-perishable food items could be deemed a terrorist. If you are missing a finger or fingers due to an accident, you could be deemed a terrorist. If you own a gun and weather-proof ammunition, you could be deemed a terrorist.
Source: Examiner.com
Sen. Rand Paul Speaks on the Senate Floor on Defense Authorization Act – 11/29/11
A curious Halliburton / KBR Request-For-Proposal has just been exposed which calls for specific FEMA Camp services to be available within 72 hours of notice, for initial set-up and the ability to respond within 24 hours for incremental services.
Infowars.com has received a document originating from Halliburton subsidiary KBR that provides details on a push to outfit FEMA and U.S. Army camps around the United States. Entitled “Project Overview and Anticipated Project Requirements,” the document describes services KBR is looking to farm out to subcontractors. The document was passed on to us by a state government employee who wishes to remain anonymous for obvious reasons.
KBR’s call for FEMA camp service bids arrives soon after the Senate overwhelmingly passed the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) which permits the military to detain and interrogate supposed domestic terror suspects in violation of the Fourth Amendment and Posse Comitatus.
Section 1031 of the NDAA bill declares the whole of the United States as a “battlefield” and allows American citizens to be arrested on U.S. soil and incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay.
Source: InofWars.com
Folks… Do a search on Google News for “National Defense Authorization Act”.
This goes against my Libertarian leanings, and should also go against yours – no matter your political orientation. While we all certainly want to do what we can to prevent ‘real’ terrorism (which itself has become very broadly defined), we must not let our government enact new laws that strip us of our constitutional rights. This is far worse than the TSA strip searching GrandMa at the airport…
How far will you let them go???
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Lock & Load Ladies and Gents. The mask is coming off, and it is a Hydra underneath………
This is so alarming! Obama has to veto this bill otherwise we’ve lost the war on terror to our leaders’ malfeasance.
Thank you for posting on this Ken and we should as a nation be up in arms against this. (figuratively of course Im not looking to bump my way up on the blue list lol)
Did you heard about the 500,000+ coffins stocked in Georgia by the FEMA? It seems to me that they are waiting for something big.
I’ve seen them. First time I heard about this, I had to see for myself. They are stored at Hartsfield (the big airport in S. Atlanta,) on airport property. I went creeping around early in the morning, trying not to attract attention. Took a camera. The cops ran me off eventually, threatening to arrest me for trespassing, even though I was NOT on airport property. They did seize my camera, which was a bad mistake.
I have a criminal suit pending in Fulton county court regarding illegal search and seizure, and a Federal civil suit pending against the officers personally for disregarding/denial my rights of unlawful search and seizure see 42 U.S.C. 1983 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00001983—-000-.html).
I can, and will receive a judgement against these goons. So far, they just keep delaying. I have recently filed a motion for speedy trial (by jury) for these cases.
I AM going to nail them to the wall on this.
(Yes, I am half a lawyer. I hold a J.D., but have never passed the bar (never cared to practice really) and cannot hold myself out as an attorney at law, yet I can represent myself and others as long as I inform them of this fact.)
As an aside, this statute is the same that the Lawyer’s Guild in bringing suits (pro bono….no charge) for the occupy protestors that have been denied their rights to peaceably assemble. Personal suits on the officers. It is a big deal, although you have not heard of it in the government media. Courts are absolutely packed with pending cases nationwide.
The Bill of Rights is quite specific. Denial of civil rights is serious business. The law is quite specific on remedies. It is also quite fun!!
Do you need any help with your suits? I’m a paralegal, worked 6 months for criminal attorney, didn’t care for the system either.
Did you go directly to Federal court without exhausting administrative remedies? If so,would love to know the procedure.
Bruce
@CF; Well, where to start? The coffins have been there for years. 3-5 years ago there were conspiracy theories about “W” having them put there so that when he declared martial law (to keep Obama out of office, boy that didn’t work did it?) that they would be used for the bodies of people that revolted. They are owned by FEMA and anything that they do is subject to conspiracy theories and wild and strange tales. It’s like the FEMA “concentration camps”. It’s almost laughable but the reason for the “camps” is the castigation (ass chewing) that Bush got for the Katrina response or perceived lack thereof. I’ve seen them built at several military installations. They are refugee camps, built on already owned Federal property for “Katrina like” disaster victims, so that the Federal gubment is not caught with their pants down over another disaster like Katrina for which some think the gubment did not do enough, although I would disagree but that is another story. Now, can they be used as concentration camps? Sure just like a vehicle can take kids to school or be the getaway car in a bank robbery or a gun can be used to defend or rob. The coffins are there for the purpose of being ready for any large scale disaster and being at a major trans. hub is only sensible. It sounds like a lot of coffins, but not when you think about it. It represents .3% of the population. Let me give you some perspective. I live in a county that has 3, 500 bed hospitals that operate at 98+% capacity with about 300K population. If there were a flu pandemic with a 5% mortality rate we would need 15,000 coffins, significantly more than the normal channels of commerce would be able to provide. Then multiply that by 3,143 counties in the U.S. and you see the magnitude of the problem. So 500k coffins are bupkiss in the grand scheme of things. IMHO, enjoy.
@ALL; This is truly a sad day. I know Ken doesn’t like this but this is bullshit!!!! What will these senators do when they come for THEM? They can be arrested just like anyone else, they just don’t think that they can be!!!! What will anyone do when the people that express differences with the administration become declared as “terrorists” against the state? When a senator rants and rails against the administration and then the president “declares” that they are a terrorist and orders the military to take them into custody, what becomes of them? Who does the ordering? Shades of the “Alien and Sedition Act”! OMFG, can this be real in our time? The time is near, friends, very near! Are these people just idiots? I am stunned, speechless. Look for many replies!!!!!
@TripodXL, “I know Ken doesn’t like this but this is…” No worries – the use of your appropriate expletive is perfect in this context
This truly is BS…
@Ken; Thank you sir. I do try to not be gratuitous. I think the well placed expletive is a very functional speech item. Some don’t appreciate it nor do they understand it. As far as being angry, there are those that think that there is no reason to EVER get angry and I, of course, disagree with them. It can be used effectively as long as you are in control of it, which is not always an easy task. Good survival. Ed
I don’t have any problem with the government going after a REAL terrorist and killing the threat before they can kill or hurt me, family members, friends, people I know, INNOCENTS. The real problem here is where is the line drawn. There have been satires done on this about where does the common sense start and idiocy begin. Where does fairness and concern for the common citizen and where does the adage of absolute power corrupts absolutely.
What this does is put a whole hell of a lot of power into a small group of people’s hands in which there is NO CLEAR DEFINTION ABOUT WHAT CONSTITUTES BEING A TERRORIST. There are many groups that simply protest and exercise their rights given to them by the constitution of the United States to peacefully speak their mind and make it public. Many groups come under a grey area that states that these people COULD be terrorists. How about someone that ties themselves to a tree and tries to prevent some old thousand year old tree from being buzzed down? These individuals are considered to be associated with terrorist that stick spikes into trees to prevent them from being chopped down.
This is a huge issue, what about guilt by association. Many innocent Arabs have been put into jail over in Israel indefinitely because they have had friends that actually did engage in terrorist activities. I know that many young people FALL into the wrong crowds accidentally. Do these young people that never had any intentions of hurting anyone deserve to be put away in some prison because of the wrong people they went around with?
This sounds a lot like the old McCarthy era in which the intentions were good to get the Commies and protect the country, ended up your neighbor, your uncle, your friends, everyone coming under suspicion for being a RED. Like the witch trials of the 17th century in which some clergy could have you dunked in some river for being evil. People start to see shadows everywhere, like the TSA sees GREMLINS under 95 year olds’ dresses.
The problem here also is that the true terrorists cannot hide under the protection of being an United States citizen, this is also extremely bad. The U.S. cannot just allow some U.S. citizen to wage war and kill innocent people under the protection that they have to be captured and have to have a trial. There are times in which an U.S. citizen in some unaccessable place has to be taken out. The same holds true for some U.S. citizen on top of a building with an anti-aircraft gun ready to fire down on thousands, they have to be taken out immediately to save lives.
The issue here is that something intended to save lives will in all probability be used to ABUSE the lives of people that it is meant to protect. I ask, what defines a terrorist? Then what defines common horse sense to combat the true terrorists that are a threat? There is a true threat to innocent people, from the terrorists and from the broad stroke that the government is giving to the law enforcement and the judicial system of the U.S.
You hit the nail on the head. The government, so far as I know, has never defined ‘the enemy’ or a ‘terrorist’. Just like when we used to have the color alerts… condition yellow… we’re all supposed to look for something ‘suspicious’ and call Big Sis Janet and report it. Well, what the hell is that? Anything suspicious? Are you kidding me? The terrorist sure as hell is not ‘ol Granny in the line at the airport… It absolutely confounds me as to how far that Americans allow their government to walk all over them (us). Part of the problem too, is that this stuff is not widely reported and is going under the radar.
@BI & Ken; You guys are totally correct the unintended consequences are the more unfortunate consequences of any law, but the UCs of this law are/would be quite egregious. I too, wonder how we got this far along on our way to the gulag. It’s odd that the biggest political topic today is jobs. The wrought iron banner over the gates at Auschwitz reads “Arbeit Macht Frei”, that is “work makes you free”. We only have one chance to take back our country and I hope it isn’t squandered. I think if most of the founding fathers could be resurrected to today’s political chaos, their first words would be “What the hell were you thinking”?
Look at all the signs, protesters in all the major cities + a failing economy = a failing government. This isn’t so much about us, the American people who are on the receiving end of all the corruption, fraud and on-going scandal, it’s about them, the failed government. They are running scared. They see how easily we can assemble in large, ticked-off masses and it scares them to death. And in typical failed government fashion, they don’t realize they can never imprison us all. This has come down to a government who refuses to relinquish its power and will use their largest yet least distructive weapon it has on its own people….FEAR. Just the thought of the military coming and locking you up basically “forever” sounds ominous. To me it sounds like revolution time. I can’t think of a single democratic country in the world who ever had a law even close to this. And if our guberment is telling us in their own diabolical way we are no longer a democracy, then it’s definitely time to lock’n load. The first time anyone sees or hears of this type of detention going on will be the first day of the revolution, no matter how hard they try to spin it.
Trust Jesus. There is no other way out of this trap that has been created by evil men.
I’m not sure this is either new or to be feared. In a war the military does not ask for ID. If you shoot at the military they shoot back and ask questions later. What this law does is accept the fact that there is a war and even if you are an enemy fighting within the U.S. you are a still an enemy combatant. Nothing I have seen in this has changed anything it merely reaffirms that enemy combatants are treated as such regardless of where they are captured. Civilian law enforcement will still be the way we deal with capturing terrorist but a war time law will determine their disposition just as it did for German and Japanese prisoners in WW II.
It is very serious. If you are declared a terrorist, domestic or otherwise, under this illegal provision you can be held as a prisoner INDEFINITELY.
You will not be allowed to see the evidence against you. Neither will your attorney, if you can get one. You will never get to court.
You will be held until the “war” ends. Just when do you thing the war on “teerrrrahh” will end? The answer is clearly NEVER.
Very big deal. Very.
This still has to get through the house, and Obongo has to sign into law. He’s said he will veto it, yet somehow I doubt it. Even so, the legislature can override it, and suit would have to be brought in Federal court (and won) to provide subjunctive relief, and a precedent of law for new cases.
With a precedent, you can very likely win such relief; judjes HATE for their decisions to be overturned.
Of course, this assumes that you can ever get a case…..before you are sent to Siberia.
Very serious.
One other point. McCarthy was right. Those who at the time stopped him and those who later changed history to make him look bad were in fact communist and communists sympathizers. The government was heavily infiltrated in the 40′s and 50′s by communist spies and McCarthy was “outing” them and then he was stopped cold. It was many years later that he was proved to be correct by facts. If you are basing your opinion of McCarthy on what Hollywood has done then you have been duped. The communist spies stole a lot of secrets including the atomic weapons secrets and put our country at risk. Arguably many of those old spies and sympathizers remained free thanks to the hatchet job our media did on McCArthy. What concerns me today is I see a similar coalition between our media and Obama to hide the facts and distort the truth.
@CG & All; I didn’t have a problem with McCarthy and do not have a problem with legitimate enforcement of laws, however the Posse Comitatus act seeks to limit the use of the Army and the Air Force from being used to enforce domestic law without the EXPRESS okay by the Congress and the U.S. Constitution. Oddly though, the Navy and the Marine Corps are only prevented from doing so by regulation and not by law. Gotta love it, the Coast Guard has NO SUCH restriction and reports to the the Dept of Homeland Security, nana Janet. Gee isn’t that swell. CG, you are absolutely correct about the collusion between the admin. and the Lamestream media. My problem with the law in question is that it doesn’t have anyway to distinguish between criminals and terrorists. It’s just like the terrorist “watch list”, there’s no definition of who gets put on it and you have no recourse or the ability to get redress of mistaken identity or other false accusations, nor can you attain a writ of Habeas Corpus if charged under it’s authority or this current law under discussion. I think it is time to “distinguish between” naturally born citizens of the U.S. and “naturalized” citizens. This would eliminate a lot of risk to most citizens but would leave the naturalized citizen at a loss, but I don’t see any other way around it. This law and others like it indeed need to be feared. Enjoy
This issue is receiving much attention among the blogs I read, which are mostly financial and preparedness related.
Here’s a great post just on topic:
http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/3100/guest-post-trampling-bill-rights
Stay ahead of the curve.
T
http://www.infowars.com/exclusive-government-activating-fema-camps-across-u-s/
@Hancock,
Now you’re getting the idea. They WANT to instill the fear into you. And if you have never served in a combat situation, you WILL cower in the fear they have just prescribed for you to ingest. But if you are a seasoned veteran or devoted patriot, and are able to cope with their propaganda, then you are able to deal with them. You can understand what it is they are doing to the American people, is the exact same thing they do to our enemy when they want to over take them. So it’s up to you, be one from the land of the “Intimated” or of the “Home of the Brave”, you choice.
Veteran Marine. They’ll never smell me, much less see me. Sniper.
Semper Fi.
I also enjoy gardening, any kind of animal that I can eat (I keep cows, chickens and hogs), dogs, my grandchildren….all this calms me.
Building AR’s from parts is fun as well. I *try* not to give them burst mode, that becomes difficult.
But as an ostensibly law abiding citizen, I would never do such a thing. Seriously 
I think there is some exaggeration about this law. Posse Comitatus is intact. It does not authorize the military to begin hunting down bad guys. The intent is to allow enemy combatants to be handed over to the military. I don’t see why it should matter if they were caught inside our country or if they were U.S. citizens caught anywhere fighting against us.
Regarding the so-called FEMA camps. This claim has been out there longer then FEMA has been around. I have in the past debunked this by going to the so-called FEMA camp locations to look for myself. I travel around and there aren’t any FEMA camps or black helicoptors or any of these crazy things the nut cases claim.
@ CountryGirl. Unfortunately the only exaggeration of laws like this that start off with good intentions are that they become exaggearations and abused in the long run. When you start to scare your countrymen and make them the potential enemy, instead of focusing on the true enemy you weaken the integrity of the country. This is exactly what the terrorists groups want, they want us to fight amoungst each other. Taking pieces of due process apart piece by piece is undermining the country. The enemy wins without any attack, we destroy each other.
You, me, Ken, everyone on this site that writes anything that hits a nerve within the government under this law, and ANYONE can be accused of being the enemy under those in authority deem. Don’t think it can happen? Look at history, it is HUMAN NATURE to look at shadows and see the boogeyman in ALL OF US. Lets get the bad guys and stop harassing and terrifying those innocent citizens that pay taxes and are honest pro-AMERICAN.
The more vague a law or any definition is, the more loopholes and more power can be obtained from it. Witch hunts are witch hunts. As CountryGirl said there were plenty of communists and sympathizers that were absolutely all for the fall of the United States during the 1940′s and 50′s and thereon, and many were exposed. However, there was also many innocent people that were All-American, pro USA 100% that were BLACKBALLED and forced to endure all sorts of tortureous interrogation and driven out of their home towns. WHY? Because people started to see phantoms everywhere and exaggearating that their neighbor, friend, co-worker, whomever was a RED. People exaggerate everything when they are afraid.
This is the whopping problem of something like this, EVERYONE is under suspicion from being involved in a group to saying something that others don’t like to hear. People use these broad strokes of the government to gain power. People use this as ways of revenge against others, to get them back by turning them in as the enemy. Has happened throughout history, especially during McCarthy era, it is just the rotten side of human nature. False accusations and protection against destruction of character will be suspended for the “GREATER GOOD”. You know why the Salem Witch Trials eventually ended? Was that the clergy and leaders of the town, their daughters were eventually accused of being witches.
Laws are frightening that do not define what the accused is accused actually of. Laws are abominable when they do not allow someone to defend themselves under Amendment VI. and VII of the Bill of Rights that states a right to speedy trials, witnesses and right to trial by jury. With this no one is immuned from prosecution of being guilty for whatever someone that does not the way you look, the way you act, your race, your belief, anything that can be deemed as an enemy.
To hold someone forever like some Soviet style Gulag, or have EVERYONE living under a KGB type of police state is exactly what being against communism is about and what the United States is not about. It is not some Napoleonic law that states you are guilty till proven innocent. DUE PROCESS is the cornerstone of the whole American foundation of this country. The founding fathers did not want to bring the dark ages laws over from Europe with them.
I am all for getting the bad guys and punishing them with the old style forms of executions like OLD SPARKY electric chairs, gas chambers. Who wouldn’t want to see bin Laden being fried on national televison? Tormenting common citizens that have done nothing other than live their lives the best they can, just because they MIGHT be an enemy sympathizer is just not what FREEDOM and LIBERTY are about. This type of Gestapo actions benefits no one and usually only weeds out innocent people that are exactly what you are trying to protect.
If I want to go somewhere in which I am watched constantly and have to watch everything I say in fear of disappearing, walk on eggshells, I would go live in China, North Korea, or Iran. Appreciate freedom, the old adage applies, you never knew how lucky you were to have something until it is gone.
@CG; It’s not that the law’s intentions (a human quality) are questioned, it’s just that the law does not define “terrorist” and who determines whom is an enemy combatant? Who turns them over?..That is the point! If there is no controlling factor over these definitions and whose responsibility it is to determine this and to turn over these terrorists, then YOU run the risk of being one, yourself!!! You’re right Posse Comitatus has not been broken up but it has been bypassed. Also if you are online RIGHT now, see one of my other posts to CF, I believe, as it mentions the FEMA camps. You might actually agree with me, LOL. Good survival. Enjoy.
FWIW:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/legislative/sap/112/saps1867s_20111117.pdf
You know what bothers me the most about this 2012 National Defense Act is WHY? Does the government not trust the criminal courts enough to prosecute true terrorists? Why does the government even consider holding someone for practically ever? There is something called “public outcry” and if the government was engaging in unscrupulous practices, it would sure be a lot easier to make someone disappear for years or forever than to try to put them away in some televised kangaroo court. Just look at the law suits against those that have been falsely accused, like the so called anthrax case in which an innocent person was tormented ruthlessly and later given a multi-million dollar settlement.
The KKK got away with murdering black people in the south for a long time because the jury was their friends, fellow black haters, until the public found out about this. Eventually many KKK members went to prison for 10 years for violating the civil rights of those they murdered, Double jeapody prevented another trial. Only after the public was made aware did this stop. Out of sight and out of mind is the real danger here.
Is the government planning all sorts of people being held that are disruptives and does not want them to be legally defended because of the bogus charges against them? This is what worries me about this law passed, is WHY? Why not trust the law system? Maybe because most of these so called charges would not hold up against many people in a real court system, with a real attorney defending them, with a real judge and a real jury of someone’s peers.
I’m not sure were that KKK reference came from but lets put things in perspective. A minority of criminals did indeed kill blacks (and whites) in the South. Maybe 10 or 20 a year maybe less. Today black and hispanic gangs seek white victims and kill 100′s a year. Do you think these gangs do it out of racism?
During WW II we incarcerated some 425,000 German prisoners of war within the U.S. Not one of them was ever tried in our civilian legal system. Should they have been?? You seem to be arguing that prisoners of war should now get a lawyer (at our expense) and a trial in our overcrowded courts. Also all of those 425,000 prisoners were to be held without trial until the end of the war. Would you have advocated that we give them back?
We have a couple hundred thousand laws on the books and most are abused. I would favor fewer laws and impeachment of DAs and judges who allow that to happen. I am not in favor of this law or the patriot act or most of the laws our congress passes. I am merely argueing that the claims of intent and abuse from this law are exaggarated and we are all being played on this by the same conspiracy theorists who like to pull our strings.
The “tortureous interrogation” you refer to was sitting in front of a congressional committee being asked “are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party”. A simple question. No torture. I am old enough to actually remember seeing this realtime. No torture. Suprisingly many of these “all-Americans” took the fifth. I could answer that question under oath couldn’t you?
@CountryGirl. Come on now! It went WAY beyond someone being asked one simple question. If you were suspect of being a communist sympathizer, even if you were hardly one, you got blackballed and your life was made a lot more difficult in unseen hidden ways. You had more difficulty getting a job you wanted, youwere fired for no reason, in short you might have just been disliked and the communist witch hunt was use as an opportunity to get you. This is how witch hunts go, many innocent people go through unfair practices because people start seeing gremilns and shadows everywhere, unfairly.
If you ever watch the old Twilight Zone episode in which this nut job considered everyone evil and kept a record on everyone and harassed them relentlessly. He decided to will all evil people to be 2 feet tall and he himself ended up a dwarf, all the while his parrot saying over and over again NUT, NUT. This was not far from true in that people harassed and made life miserable for their neighbors, anyone they saw as not conforming to what they deemed as being NORMAL. The 1950′s was a decade of strict conformity, just look at the restrictions on what was said and shown on television during this era. This is the danger of this potential witch hunt again, history repeating itself.
My reference to the KKK was that until it was made visible, total abuse of the legal system in the south ran rampant. 10 to 20 per year, I don’t think that this is a total that even begins to reflect how many innocent blacks died because of usually the color of their skin. It just was never reported. This is my point, people can be classified as an enemy and then just disappear without due process or anything just because the government deems you to be undiserable. At least a trial is made public and is under the scurtiny of visibility. This is my point out of sight and out of mind. There are many people that the government wishes would go away that are simply exercising their freedom under the constitution to protest. What better way to make a problem just go away by classifying them as an enemy combanant, no trial, no money spent for prosecution, just label them the enemy under the title of terrorist and disappear them. Let’s hope to God that this never happens.
As your next reference to the way I feel about black and spanish gangs, I feel extremely strongly that these gangs should be dealt with involving the military. I mean hard core eradication. Many of these gangs are affiliated with Venezuela, even Iran, and pose a very extremely dangerous threat to the the interior security of the country. The drugs that are brought in have devastated the people and communities all over the country. I truly feel that the next World War if it does not go nuclear, the gangs in this country that are absolutely free to roam around are going to take on the defense of this country. They are definitely real enemy combanants and to not deal with them as such is asinine. You see, you, TripodXL, and I share similiar common sense beliefs.
One other item is that I am not some bleeding heart, I am logic based person that is also fair. I never want some innocent person to suffer because of their belief or the color of their skin. I know the threat from minority gangs, but I also know that their are minorities that are employed by the federal government and are more pro-American than you could ever hope for. There are bad people in every race. I do fully realize that these gangs are a military threat and for the government to do nothing is just wrong.
No way do I advocate some foreigner that is a POW deserves the same rights as an United States citizen. Almost all other counties don’t provide this for U.S. POW’s. I am saying that every United States citizen and legal resident deserves fair due process. If and when this right under the constitution is revoked we all lose.
@BI & CG; Here, let me add to the confusion. I would have to disagree with you BI about the justice system and terrorists (that is enemy combatants that are NOT state sponsored, regular combat troops). They do need to be dealt with swiftly and severely (please pass the pistol), but as BI notes there need to be “safeguards” so as to not lock up REAL (citizens of birth and I don’t mean illegal alien children) U.S. citizens with out “due process”. Citizens of the realm deserve “due process”, and if a citizen of the realm is determined by the legal system, with proper oversight, to be a “terrorist” then and only then should they be turned over to the military and at THAT point I don’t care anymore, they’ll get what they deserve. As far as true military combatants, they are covered by the Geneva Convention, and as such are not subject to the legal system of a country other than for any domestic crimes that they commit. For instance, if a German POW escaped and robbed a store and killed the clerk, then they would be subject to the local law as it applied to those crimes only, but as far as their POW disposition, they would be at the disposal of the military with a very specific set of rules governed by the Convention. As far as being “played” by the conspiracists, I would have to disagree, at least on this site. There are some, as there are everywhere, that wander that way but by and large they don’t fly well here because of the pointed and honest discourse. Ken moderates things very well. All hyperbole aside, you have to consider all the ramifications of poorly worded legislation, and this bill is much more than just poorly worded legislation. CG, the concern here isn’t conspiracy based, it’s just the OBVIOUS unintended consequences are so egregious that they deserve significant discussion, which we are providing, and that is the point. I don’t particularly believe or disbelieve most conspiracies. To be sure there are many and I would not dare tell anyone that they shouldn’t believe in one. I would note, however, that if you do believe in conspiracies, you shouldn’t need two hands to count them and probably not more than one or two fingers at most. There just aren’t that many coordinated conspiracies that can be true, as they have to have too many people involved to work. Anyone that has been involved with OPSEC (operational security) knows that the more people that know about it, the less secure it is. It is just human nature to blab as well as it is human nature to want answers to questions that may not have answers, therefore it is human nature to believe in conspiracies to provide answers. I also agree with CG that if telling the congress what your true belief system is, is considered tortuous, then I guess it was tortuous during the McCarthy hearings, for those embarrassed to say they were communists, out loud. Good! It should embarrass and shame them. Intellectual honesty is not a quality that many people have or strive to portray…probably why I don’t play well with others. Semper esto tibi ipsi fidus. Enjoy!
@TripodXL. No, no, I say that terrorists have no rights, they absolutely have to be dealt with as quickly as possible to avoid innocent people being hurt or killed. This is what SWAT teams do, protect the innocent and eliminate the threat immediately. I am only concerned that the common person that harms no one and is just trying to live their lives, their rights as a person are not infringed upon. If you read some of my comments when they nailed that U.S. citizen around in Yemen, I totally supported the military with this because they could not in practical sense bring this character to trial without costing many American troops’ lives. Taking out someone that is a bonafide terrorist is the wisest choice to save lives that are worth something in the long run.
The issue with me is that we have freedom, and that freedom includes even people that most others disagree with. Someone can worship a rock or a tree and speak their mind about it, no matter how whacked out it is. To lose this freedom because “people that harm no one” are afraid that their free speech is going to get them labeled a terrorist and possibly land them in some detention facility is an awful thought. Like I have said before, I want to get the REAL bad characters and criminals and take them out before they can hurt one person, this without taking away the cornerstone of basic freedoms for the REAL U.S. citizens that everyone should appreciate.
TripodXL. I am totally on your side when it comes to taking out the threats, and this includes criminals. I am totally for the innocent person being able to defend themselves and when the state takes away the right of a person to secure their right to safety, they aid the criminal and go against the potential victim. We all have rights, that is until we relinquish those rights by choice. A felony that actually has committed the crime no longer can possess firearms, this was their choice to rob the liquor store. “Terrorists have no rights”, when they take up arms against the country they forfeit that right, this was their choice to renounce those rights as an U.S. citizen.
@BI; I essentially said what you said, that you disagreed with???? If you read what I said, I basically said terrorists have no rights although I didn’t use those words!!! I DISTINGUISH between “native born” citizens and naturalized (new, not born here) citizens. I think those people that are born here as citizens (AND I DON’T MEAN ILLEGAL ALIEN CHILDREN) have the rights, no one else. Please re-read the post. Enjoy.
@ TripodXL. I think Ken lit a firestorm here and got everyone upset about something that everyone must be upset over, our deteriorating freedoms. Each year these so called leaders hack away at this wonderful piece of paper called the constitution, and other than sites like MSB that people, no one else seems concerned over it. This is the way dictatorships start, when people just stop caring about liberty and freedoms for the citizens. The reason why we at MSB become so upset over this is because we are aware of the implications of the government chipping away at all of our rights. The common person sees this as something that is unimportant, Christmas shopping and alcohol filled celebrations matter so much so.
We as a country are in so much trouble because of the short attention span and lack of caring about the well being of the country as a whole by MOST of the population. TripodXL, as Otter has said many times, we here on this site are on the same page and I so much, as I am sure others enjoy the time you and others spend writing down what you think. Two thumbs up again to Ken for more thought provoking articles and much interesting discussion.
@BI; Yes it is a firestorm, but it provokes thought, discussion and hopefully new ideas to challenge the establishment ethos. As I said in my first post, which was number 6 on this thread, even though there were no posts when I wrote it. I would expect quite a few comments and boy howdy, there are plenty. Enjoy.
I read the offending sections 1031 1032, and have several concerns. First, the entire bill is boiler plate language for funding stuff for the military depts…why did they insert such a vague but critically important issue into an otherwise dull bloated snooze of a bill? Second, why is it so vague? They bury us in mountains of paperwork at every chance, but the capture and detention of US terrorists only gets 2 short sections? Third, i also saved a copy of the missouri miac report that instructed state police to suspect prepper types, ron paul supporters, and constitutional believers of being domestic terrorists…and the southern poverty law center is constantly issuing missives about right wing types as enemies of the state. When i put all these together (and so much more) i cant help but suspect my own govt of planning something evil against its citizens. I fear the future in our lifetime will be dark and sinister, and i hate that feeling. God help us.
BI I was defending McCarthy and pointing out that he was right. McCarthy never blackballed anyone or denied them jobs.
I have studied the history and there was a lot more intimidation then murder committed by the KKK. But my point was: 1)That was a crime by some thugs not a lot different then the Mafia or the gangs you speak of. I didn’t do it, you didn’t do it, millions and millions of Americans didn’t do it. It was a handful of thugs. 2) the racists crimes committed today against whites go unreported or covered up. Was it wrong back then and OK now? Lets be consistent (by that I mean the law).
Tripod: My reference to conspiracy is that it is the conspiracy themed blogs that are exaggarating the effects of this law. The blogs we all read everyday are speaking in an echo chamber. They all repeat the same things and each repeat amplifies it to the reader. After all if thirty blogs all say the same thing then it must be true.
Homestead: If I were able to I would require that all laws be written on one page and in 8th grade level English. There is a reason for bills to run to 2000 pages and that is so they can hide things in it.
I am not “happy” with this law, as I’ve already said. I just don’t see that it has done away with Posse comitatus as was originally stated.
@CountryGirl. Unfair treatment to ANYONE is not right, and “I agree” with you that there is tremendous mistreatment to the white population that goes unreported because it has long been assumed that the white population is at the top of the echelon and not in need of defense. This is as wrong now as it was years ago, with any race.
McCarthy never personally blackballed anyone, but others surely did to others that they deemed a threat, whether they were or not. That is the danger of a witch hunt like what this could become. My point was to get the enemy and not make enemies out of innocent U.S. citizens.
I know that Hollywood has portrayed it as a witch hunt but it was not. McCarthy exposed real spies, people who had given state secrets to the Soviet Union. He would have exposed even more spies in our government but he was stopped and many of the same people who stopped him later become the ones who vilified him. It was many years later that unformation became available that proved McCarthy was right and if he had been allowed to continue his investigation he would have outed even more communist spies.
Congress passed bill too. Love the way yahoo cleaned up the terminology
House and Senate agree on sweeping defense bill (sorry wont let me copy the link)
If one wakes up to the truth of the constitution … they would see that it actually reserves the rights of the government to do just what they are doing …
As I’ve mentioned before … the very first Bill of Rights amending the constitution plainly says that this governing constitution staff will at no time … make a law as to respect any establishment of the mainstream people’s religion .. even though they would allow free exercise for the people to do so …
And at the same time, under the same breath of their write stating they will not make a law restraining themselves …. they further plainly indicate that the governing constitution staff will not respect the mainstream people’s freedom of speech …
Nor make no law for them to respect the added on of the bill of rights‘ freedom of press …
Nor make no law for them to respect the added on of the bill of rights‘ freedom of the people to peaceably assemble …
Nor make no law for them to respect the adding on of the bill of rights‘ to petition (appeal to a higher authority) of the Government for a redress (compensation) of grievances.
They are proving themselves true to their written word … things must change for the better of the people …
This article I found fits here like a glove http://johngaltfla.com/wordpress/2012/02/16/i-am-a-patrioterrorist/ It is incredible how many statements are made here that reflect survival ideology on the this site and most other survival sites about the freedoms and liberties that good honest people want from their governments. Not just the United States either, this certainly applies to other countries that pretend to be free and yet enslave their good and honest citizens with suffocating laws that empower the criminals and those that are not good citizens of their nations.