Doomsday Preppers Will Be Treated Like Terrorists
“I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic…”
I received an email from a reader who asked: “I just read this article and was curious about your take on it….”
http://www.infowars.com/national-guard-whistleblower-doomsday-preppers-will-be-treated-as-terrorists/
Let me premise my comments with this… I do enjoy listening to Alex Jones who has a talent for discovering and shining a light on government intrusions into our liberties as Americans. He is a passionate man who appears genuinely concerned about what is happening in America and the world today, as am I.
The article in question basically states that a National Guardsman came forward and blew the whistle regarding government orders as to how to handle riots and social chaos, should it occur as a result of the upcoming elections. The apparently ‘vetted’ Guardsman states that there are lists of ‘Doomsday Preppers’ who will be targeted first should this chaos ensue. The National Guard will be ordered to take their firearms… according to the report.
This general topic comes up fairly often (the gov’t coming to take our guns), which is why I chose to post on it rather than to answer the email directly. I also look forward to your comments…
Here’s my take on this…. The Oath of Enlistment for the U.S. military reads, “I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic…”. My gut tells me that should such an order of confiscation actually occur, that very few American soldiers (from whatever branch…) will actually follow through on fellow Americans.
Mrs. MSB disagrees with me however, and feels that IF the military were given such an order that they would carry it out – because that’s what they are trained to do.
But I think that not only would it be a conflict in their minds (2nd Amendment and all…) and a potential suicide mission, but it would most certainly spark a massive ‘problem’ from the armed populace who understands their 2nd Amendment rights.
I know this happened in the New Orleans vicinity following hurricane Katrina, and guns were indeed illegally confiscated. But I also know that New Orleans was (is?) known for its corruption, particularly in their local gov’t and PD.
So, while I could be wrong, my instinct tells me that this will not happen this way. Instead, ongoing slow strangulation of gun rights is and has been the tactic as more and more upcoming generations are taught (through media and other brainwashing) that guns are bad, rather than the ‘bad’ people who may use them badly.
Now as far as gov’t lists of ‘Doomsday Preppers’, I have no doubt that these lists do exist. After all, look at the enormous DHS who need to self justify their existence. Look at what they have been doing (and buying). Actions speak louder than words. I’m sure you don’t know this (until now) that there have been DHS infiltrators on this very website disguising themselves as one of ‘us’ while they comment on posts. I’ve caught some of them by their IP Address which traced directly to ‘Department of Homeland Security’. It’s actually a bit unnerving to realize that they have done this and apparently have nothing better to do than to dig into a website like this. Like we’re the enemy???
Here’s the thing… the DHS is NOT the military. In fact, the DHS are the ones to be concerned about in my opinion. I realize that the DHS umbrella now encompasses many good agencies (border patrol, etc.), so don’t shoot me down. I’m just saying that the aggressive behavior of the agency pressing against American liberty and spying / tracking Americans is… well…. paranoid on their part. Why are they doing this? It seems ridiculous.
So to sum up my answer to the person who sent me the email, I do NOT believe that our military would ever carry out such an order against their fellow Americans. I DO believe that the DHS is capable of attempting such action, based on their current leadership and their record of actions.
(Having said that, I’ll bet I’ve moved up a bit on their list 
)
Comments?
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On Mrs MSB’s Side:
This is how I understand Martial Law and our military. That when Martial Law is declared then all civil liberties are stripped for a temporary amount of time. Of course “temporary” is not defined, nor are just which “liberties” are stripped. The USMCJ article 90 says that the military MUST obey all “Lawful” orders. If Martial Law is declared and US citizens are considered a “domestic enemy” then our rights are no more and then that makes the order lawful and must be carried out. And with all the executive orders that have hit the books it gives them free will to order darn near anything that suits their fancy. So I agree with her on her point!
Now for your side:
DHS is not military instead parts of them under the umbrella are to me nothing more than a glorified militant or mercenary type group. So I agree with you on that point!
Oh my did I just agree with both sides????
There’s my take on it and I probably will get moved up the list with you!! At least we will all be in good company… LOL
Kudos to you for catching the spy’s!!!
@Christine; I would say that politically the conflict of the “citizens” not having any rights would not mesh logically with the “lawful order” statute of article 90 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice as the “power” vested in the troops, politically, comes from “the people”. While certain aspects of martial law SEEM like a good idea at the time, they seldom turn out so. Even so, the mandate to the military to “obey lawful orders” does not mean that any order given is lawful. The military is given the training about the UCMJ constantly and WE KNOW WHAT A LAWFUL ORDER is. Martial law does not suspend the Federal government and hence the Supreme Court or the Congress. ONLY congress can authorize the use of troops for “real” martial law (Posse Comitatas Act of 1878). Martial law has been used 8-11 or 12 times in U.S. history. Groups of people were convicted during the Civil War of “seditious crimes” and imprisoned. These sentences were later overturned when the onerous and outrageous behavior of the military governors was brought to light. These cases were the impetus for Posse Comitatas being put in place. Ironically they mostly occurred in the North. To have outright national martial law, for any purpose, is anathema to the concept of freedom as we know it and military people specifically understand that. If/when that ever happens, the rights we have are STILL our God given rights as defined under the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. I think the concept of nationwide martial law would be the start of ……well, I should stop talking now but you get the picture. Nationwide martial law could only have the purpose of complete suppression of the American people. I will not live in AmeriKa. Survive well. Enjoy.
@tripod. You are right about National Martial Law being a complete and total suppression of the American People. I pray it never comes to that. I also think that MOST (and I do mean most not some) of the military personnel would look at their CO’s and tell them they are absolutely nuts! That was my understanding of how it all could (supposition) work if the US citizens got too… Shall we say “Rowdy” and needed to be put in their place… Then they could be deemed “domestic terrorists” on an individual or group basis and then I do not believe the constitution would apply in the eyes of the government. I have alot fo faith in our military (the soldiers on the ground whether it be Navy, Army, Marines or whatever) just not in the ones at the top…. Words and rules can be twisted around to make the most insane thing sound logical and reasonable…
I pray we just do not ever have to worry about any of it and all of this discussion is just that… Discussion…
Keep safe….
i’ve already discussed the topic of gun confiscation w/ the other NCOs and unanimously it was decided that if we were ordered to confiscate american guns we’d tell the COC that they’d have to get the suicidal ones to try it. none of us want to get shot doing this one wknd a month BS.
@stryke: Well said. Ooorah, hooha, anchors aweigh or swoosh(?) or whatever is appropriate for you. Thanks for your service. Survive well. Enjoy.
@Ken; First have Ms. Lauren read my post http://modernsurvivalblog.com/security/un-arms-treaty-will-bind-us-despite-majority-senate-dissenters/comment-page-1/#comment-42739 and the other related posts and I can’t find them, but you can. I have a majority of faith that what I have said is true. I can’t guarantee this, but I have a significant amount of faith in this based on my personal knowledge of the military in a contemporaneous way among all the services as I know people in all of them. I will say that the DHS is prolly the “brown coats” (sturmgewehr) of our generation, without fail. As far as gun confiscation being a “suicide mission”, YOU’RE RIGHT! It doesn’t matter if it is gun confiscation or “prepper control”, it WILL BE a suicide mission. Should I have a visit, I have a backhoe don’t you know. I have lived a blessed life and am grateful for that. I will defend my country with all my will and might, however that turns out. I would really like to be killed by a jealous husband when I’m 99 years old. LOL. I have come to a point in life where I UNDERSTAND the real meaning of life and liberty. As such, I have none of the compunctions of younger people, who have the future to look forward to, and will do all that can be done to be an honorable “citizen”. You are right that the SLOW strangulation of our rights is more likely the way of the brown coats than the outright confiscation of our guns (rights). Survive well. Enjoy.
Put me on a no fly list. Oh, sorry, that is not what we are talking about… So here comes the October Surprise, her name is “Sandy”. I have said it is not an election of the people, for the people, it is an Appointment! IF? Sandy hits the 40 million population zone it will be just the type of thing, that all that has been said and weighed above, would spark… We will see… Help Us Think this storm away… Mind over Matter… Survive-All… Be well… o…
I am with you on Sandy becoming our October Surprise.
Stay tuned Otter and if you are able, keep us informed how you weather this,
Thinking of all those in Sandy’s path…
I know that my national guardsman wouldn’t be one to confiscate guns, and if he did he might confiscate them to his own collection
Kidding. But I am sure of the majority of the guardsmen that I know they wouldn’t be following orders on that point, but you never know how they may be threatened to do it either.
Hey everybody, it’s been a couple of weeks since I’ve posted on here, but I’m glad Ken brought this subject to the discussion. Now, let me preface this by saying that I don’t consider myself a conspiracy theorist. I have a longtime friend who used to be my roomate, but decided to enlist in the military about 4 years ago. To date, he’s completed 2 tours of duty in Afghanistan, and just left to do a third. I’m not sure about his rank, as I don’t speak with him as often as I used to as a result of his tours and because he moved to South Carolina. Anyways, I spoke with him two weeks ago before he left,and he told me “look, I can’t go into detail, but get prepared”, and while I wish there was more I could say about it, there’s not. When I pressed him by saying “for what?, why? etc.”, he wouldn’t say. In fact, he completely dropped the subject altogether. But I will tell you this, it truly spooked me, because I trust this guy – he doesn’t exagerate, and he’s as honest as they come. Then I read this article that Ken posted. I also read a lot of the comments in the article above and there are a few military folks from the guard and army who said they haven’t heard of any of this stuff, but that they wouldn’t participate anyways. So it’s hard to say what’s going on.
In other news, we’re currently in the path of Hurricane Sandy, so I’ll let you guys know what the damage is like afterwards. Right now they’re saying to expect 3-6″ of rain, 60 mph sustained wind with up to 80 mph wind gusts. The emergency alerts are saying to prepare for a week or more without power. If there’s any immediate damage, I’ll take photos and send them in to Ken. Anyways, wish us luck over here in the midatlantic.
I’m active in an Illinois teaparty and have spoken to a dozen or more active duty folks who have come to our events and all have said they would not obey any such unconstitutional order I agree that the DHS folks maybe different . Those I know there, are bureacrats first and citizens 2nd.
Dear Ken,
I would have to agree with Mrs. MSB that indeed it would be one of the “doodeze” of the military to take away guns whatever their “oaths” to the constitution are here.
A military of any sorts doesnt want to be outpowered or outgunned for that matter and will take any measurements necessary to make sure that is the situation.
I do respect the military and the National Guard, however, will there be a coup detat against an oppressive president or government whereby active units will disobey orders of the upper ranks of Generals, captains, lieutenants etc., in favor of the people?.
Principally when it comes to your life DO NOT put it in the hands of others. This is where your proposition to have “faith” or “fate” in the military which is part of the government not the people falls apart and when it comes to MY LIFE I am with Mrs. MSB and I hope when it comes to YOURS AND HERS you are on YOUR OWN SIDE and not that of an enemy which will probably be MORE DOMESTIC than foreign?
Thank You.
Don.
@don; I’m about tired of this B***S*** and damned tired of responding to it. First, coup detat(sic) is not a particular part of our heritage and social order, as the civilians control the military and always will. That is inherent in the oath we take as well as to specifically support the constitution Every so often you will hear a member mention something about the military taking over and how much “better it would be” and they usually get their asses shouted down with a vast majority of fellow members. I would submit to you that even General (5 stars) Douglas MacArthur had his ass handed to him by that badest of badassed of presidents, Harry Truman. What a Caspar Milquetoast…and yet MacArthur deferred to him, albeit in an arrogant way. With the present span of control the way it is in the DoD the “conspiracy” to initiate a coup d’etat(proper spelling with what I can type)would have to involve tens and tens of 4 star generals with corresponding chains of commands, in all branches of the service, to have even a miniscule chance of succeeding. Every commander (at every level) is schooled in military law and it’s interface with civilian law and understanding their PERSONAL responsibility and the CONSEQUENCES of executing unlawful orders. That’s that!!! As far as nationwide confiscation of firearms by the military, B***S***…won’t happen, period!!! We won’t do it, the outrage would paralyze the military and make “Mutiny on the Bounty”(which apparently sank today) look like a birthday party. I agree with your premise of “not putting your fate in others hands”. However fighting back in united resistance is not a coup d’etat, it is a revolution, and that I certainly wouldn’t rule out. You do not “respect” the military at all, which is obvious just by the way you propose one direction of power and control by us military types doing our ‘“doodeze” of the military to take away guns whatever their “oaths” to the constitution are’. And then, you belittle us with the opposite use of power and control to effect a “coup detat”(sic)(actually a revolution) on behalf of the people. You cannot have “respect” without trust and faith that we will do all we can as military people, to not turn on “the people” in any situation, that doesn’t involve “pod people” taking over control. So, which is it? Do you respect us in the military or not? You can’t have it both ways. Survive…never mind!!!
Dear Ken & Mrs. MSB,
Indeed a domestic force especially a military or police force will be very foreign to your gun rights as you will be considered an armed threat and confiscation of guns and/or you will be more viable to a soldier or a police officer to follow the orders of whomever, since an army or police is based on a monarchy oligarchy totalitarian rule (such as fascism and communism) (though of course military or police people may not have these beliefs – they are still trained per the said realms “to follow orders”) and this is the basic program to do (is follow orders) in default of any situation.
Thank You.
Don.
@don; Wow, could you be a more obtuse, arrogant, pontificative, snobtard? I think not. YOU ARE RIGHT! The more probable enemy will be domestic, but not military. While we are trained to follow orders we aren’t trained to be stupid. We take orders that are lawful with respect to the ROEs given or standard ROEs that we are taught throughout our careers, none of which have anything to do with oppressing the general population. How is it you have this military experience and knowledge? WHAT BRANCH OF THE MILITARY WERE YOU IN? You and I have had this conversation before, and you didn’t answer the question then, either. I look forward to your answer. You have absolutely no understanding of the military at large, much less of any specific nature of operations or the ethos of the military populace. Brown Shirts will be the “army or police” that will be dangerous and they will prolly be the DHS and others of their ilk that could possibly “attempt” to confiscate firearms…good luck with that. Done!!! Word!!!
“@don; Wow, could you be a more obtuse, arrogant, pontificative, snobtard? I think not.” Yeah what He said! Thanks Tripod, that gave me a good laugh, And I appreciate your views on how the military actually works.
@Halfkin; Yeah, he just struck the wrong chord with me. Now, having said that, I don’t want anyone to think that I think the military is perfect, we/they aren’t. We don’t make policy, we implement it. And I certainly wouldn’t give them a free pass over anything they did that was wrong. But, when the topic of something so “absurdly wrong” (as nationwide gun confiscation) is predicted to be the probable fault and responsibility of the military (and yes I am biased) by people that don’t understand anything about the military, other than what they see in the movies, it gets under my skin. My premise, without the vitriol and sarcasm, is that the honor that our VOLUNTEER troops have for their responsibilities to the citizens and their freedoms is a very dominating ethical point for them. They are above reproach on cut and dried issues such as this one. Are there circumstances where wrongdoing could take place in a very convoluted situation in local areas, where it isn’t so cut and dried? Yes, absolutely. But having spent the most of 40 years in the military (active and reserve) and having two sons and a wife on active duty and the exposure to the different services and their personnel, I feel very confident in my assertions. I’m not a big fan of rainbows, unicorns and blue skies, so my premise is based on objective observations of how people behave and what they say and do i.e. critical thinking skills. We do obey orders, but we are not mindless robots that can DO ONLY AS WE ARE TOLD. I cannot overemphasize the training that they go through to be sure that the lowest ranking member knows what is ethically, legally and morally right. If the military turned on us, I would turn them in a heartbeat, but that is not the kind of person that is in the military at this time. Hopefully it will always remain that way. Survive well. Enjoy.
Tripod xl – you mention “You and I had this conversation before and you did not answer then either” – I do not track every comment I made and any replies to it. Give me the link to the comments then – I will be happy to, and
1. We comment out here.
2. It is not a conversation.
3. DO NOT write down to me or “talk” down to me or call me names, THIS IS NOT THE MILITARY, I am not calling you names or being arrogant about my response here to your articles.
4. This is not personal (“sounds” like you are trying to make it that way).
5. I respect you and your family have given service to the country.
6. Just because I give an opposing opinion on whatever does not mean I “disrespect” the military.
7. This is not the military, it is an open civilian forum.
8. I do not respect you for your language in stating “could you be a more obtuse, arrogant, pontificative, snobtard” – indeed you are the very one being like this as YOUR ANGER seems to play a large part in the responses to what I wrote.
9. The First Amendment of the constitution states we are entitled to express our opinions whether you like them or not.
8. This is not the military. It is an open civilian forum and not an open shout down as you describe in the military.
9. You see the side of the military only from the side of the military and not from a civilian outlook, this does not make me your lesser or you more.
10. Just because one is in the military does not mean someone has to “respect” you, respect is a two way street, not your expressive one way street where dead ends meet.
This is all I got time to write for now,
I’ll be back.
Don.
Apparently you didn’t bother to read my response to Halfkin which offered further illumination into my thought processes about the responses rendered and were from a broader, more inclusive and explanatory point of view. That should have circumvented any manifesto responses, as it was written particularly with you in mind. I to an busy, I’ll be back!
Like you I don’t keep a diary of every post I make but I do know what I remember AND we have had a very similar exchange in the past (unless there is another don) about the military and “what branch of the service were you in” as well as the same similar negative viewpoints about the military performing some nefarious evil, indicative of you not understanding how ANYTHING is done in the military and spreading your significant ignorance. It is never personal as far as YOU, I don’t know you from Adam, but I WILL defend the reputations of people that I know and the ethos of the organizations and institutions that they represent since I have a significantly broader knowledge about them than you. You are correct in that I give a viewpoint ABOUT (not from) a military perspective…however, I spent 11 years on active duty, the rest as a reservist (a citizen soldier, as was intended by our forefathers), not counting a number of mobilizations and deployments. I have been assigned with members of all 4 branches of the military, on 5 out of 7 continents (never made it to Australia or Antarctica, sad to say). I have been shot at and shot back and been in harms way more than a few times. I have been retired from the military for two years with somewhere around 32-34 good years for pay at an E-8 rate. That would be a master sergeant/first sergeant in the Army and Marines, a senior chief in the Navy and a senior master sergeant in the Air Force. It only goes to E-9. I represent ½ of one percent of the enlisted force, i.e. in Roman times it would be the rank of Centurion. In addition I also spent 22 years as a field service engineer for a multinational company working on complex, high-end, medical imaging equipment (CT,PET, Gamma, MRI etc.). I had to balance being John Q Citizen versus being GI Joe, so I know the difference between being “in the military” versus being “a citizen” with a CLARITY that few ever have the honor to know. This is simply an observation and I was happy to serve, with no regrets and it doesn’t mean I have disrespect for those that didn’t.
As far as your post, YOU are the one with the numbered “manifesto” points, not I. I think it is you that has made this personal as your itemized post obviously exhibits (4). For most of us that have been “here” for some time, we do have “conversations” and do more than “just comment”, so there is an obvious “give and take” over issues that you seem purposefully unwilling to understand (1,2). So YOU DON’T GET TO MAKE blanket statements and bold decrees about topics that you obviously have no first hand knowledge of (military service), that go unchallenged, period, no matter the topic. I was not talking “down” to you. I was talking directly to you. As far as YOUR posts on this specific topic being arrogant and pontificative, I think I was pretty much dead on. Your swagger, as you pontificate on your prescience (divine omniscience, so you don’t have to look it up) about the military is rather obvious and “loud” as it were. The obtuse part was pretty obvious from your disjointed and meandering statements and I’ll revisit that at the end. Yeah, “snobtard” was a bit over the top and I tend to not use sarcasms like that, unless they are warranted. You warranted the sarcasm, just by displaying your ignorance of the military more than once (3). As far as being angry, I’m not. I am simply “irritated” by the ignorance you display with your “arm chair commando” type observations about the military (and other topics) and “what they will do” in certain situations. Also, I don’t give a s#!+ whether the likes of you respect my family, the military or me or not. I know where I’ve been, what I’ve done and am very satisfied with my record of accomplishment and don’t need any “false affirmations” to bolster my ego (8). I see the BIGGER picture of the issue, as one would expect, by having been in both worlds. Everyone is a citizen and starts out that way but few serve the citizenry the way the military does (>1%). Nothing can make up for the months away from home, the missed birthdays, the monetary hardships, missed anniversaries, missed funerals, missed births etc. not to mention enduring the hardships of deployment after deployment, or the “missing limbs” and missing lives. I have not a single regret and served gladly, it was an honor. To state that I “only see it from the military perspective” is not only ignorant, it doesn’t even make sense. Hell, even I don’t agree with how the military is used all the time. BUT, we serve, we don’t make policy, BUT we will only serve up to a point, I can sincerely promise that. Since we all have to start out as citizens before we join the military, the way you summarize it, it’s almost like my “other life” outside the military didn’t exist! Like I’m not “smart enough” to understand the “citizen” side of it. How insulting! If anyone was “talking down” to someone, YOU were talking down to the military personnel and me, about how we would do something so obviously counter intuitive to the freedoms we enjoy. When you talk about the military in such a duplicitous manner it DOES mean you disrespect them, regardless of how you say it. (Oh, yeah, I respect you, I just don’t trust you…b###s***) You cannot have a contemptuous “opinion” about the military and their capabilities and yet “respect” them. You seem to be the one that doesn’t understand the “give and take” here, as I didn’t “shout you down”, which was given as an example of how the behavior you ascribed to the military would be met, in the event some f***tard would actually try to order that (confiscation) to be done (5,6,8,9).
Word….duh (7,9)!
You could not make my point any better than point 10! First, no one HAS to respect me because I was in the military. Do I expect respect? Sure. Just like when you go to work, you expect to be paid at the end of the week, just like the dog expects to be fed every day and get a pat on the head. I expect a nod, a handshake, even a pat on the back once in a while. I DO NOT expect people to fawn over me or expect to be bowed down to and the fact that you imply that is “disrespectful” (again) in it’s own right. So I still think “snobtard” was not too far off and I’ll stand by it. And I absolutely love this;
“respect is a two way street, not your expressive one way street where dead ends meet.”
Dude, did you have to get permission from Yogi Berra to use this line? If this is not the definition of OBTUSE, I don’t know what would be. Here are the definitions of obtuse from two sources;
1.
not quick or alert in perception, feeling, or intellect; not sensitive or observant; dull.
2.
not sharp, acute, or pointed; blunt in form.
1.
a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect.
b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark.
c. Not distinctly felt
When you are trying to persuade someone that you aren’t “obtuse”, I’m not thinking “respect is a two way street, not your expressive one way street where dead ends meet.” would be the linchpin sentence of my thesis for refutation. Just sayin’. How do dead ends meet, anyway? Someone once said you should always bring a gun to a gun fight, therefore is would seem that intellectual battles are best fought with… Everything else was said in the other posts. Also of note is the lack of an answer to MY question, yet again!?! To all else, survive well. Enjoy.
Tripo – This is really over the line and just angry contempt at what I wrote about the military playing a certain role in a certain situation i.e. doing what the commander in chief says and taking weapons from civilians during marshal law.
Militaries all over the world have certain chains of command so that it acts as a cohesive force under rule of its commander in chief.
What I wrote is my opinion the way I see any military or police working, not a personal attack.
However, I looked at the “comments policy” here and it appears to me you maybe in violation of the following:
3. No personal attacks, bashing or ‘troll’ behavior.
That is… someone who posts inflammatory, or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking readers or otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion, often with a sole intent of bashing the subject matter.
4. No swearing or racial slurs.
(keep it clean… or symbol swear @$#&! )
A good healthy disagreement is quite alright. It gets close to the ‘comment policy’ borderline from time to time, but I do cut some slack to long time readers and those who have been regular at posting comments.
One thing to remember is that in my opinion, no one will EVER change someone’s overall mindset in a comment thread. People are who they are, and there sure are lots of opinions. That’s what makes the world go ’round.
Discussion is a good thing. 99% of people who visit blogs, go to town meetings, gatherings, etc., do not speak up or comment… they just ‘take it all in’. So bear in mind that the things you say (type) are being read by thousands each day, while most of them keep quiet – but make their own opinions.
Keeping a conversation or disagreement informative is a good thing. Bashing for the sake of bashing turns people off, and if there’s too much of it, people will leave the website. This is why I have such a policy…
-ken
Ken,
This is very well written and true.
Thank you.
Don.
Okay dono; Look, I don’t care who you are..if you espouse something, even an opinion, that is based on faulty information, impressions, UNVERIFIED premises or whatever and I DO HAVE legitimate knowledge about it that supersedes yours, I will bring it to the fore and if I’m wrong, I’ll be wrong and if not, you’ll be wrong. That is simply intellectual honesty, which should exist on both sides. YOU have no idea about what troops at large think, and what they’re liable to do, and your lack of response to my question of “what service were you in” indicates that such is probably quite true. Why no answer. How many AD troops do you actually know? You cannot make your stated premise be any more reliable by attacking me and not answering. Who died and made you God? Your premise is wrong. MY ONLY purpose is for the truth to come out, and this isn’t opinion, this is a fact, that I have contemporary knowledge of the military troops, their education and training, mindsets and their probable reactions to what was discussed. End of argument. Next, there was no contempt nor was any verbalized. I posted ON TOPIC per YOUR post, period. I am not a troll and have been here much longer than you and understand my limits. If soundly thought out disagreement, critical thinking skills and logic causes “inflammatory” issues with posters then I guess Ken should just shut the site down. As I TOLD YOU BEFORE, I’m not the one that’s angry! You are the one that keeps bringing up the red herring “logic” (that is no logic) of your premise, which is incorrect and has NO FOUNDATION IN KNOWLEDGE BASED FACTS, not me. You’re the one that started the “manifesto” bullet points, not me. I haven’t called you a single name, though to split my own hair, I have made 3rd person referrals, by asking leading questions, which could be mistaken that way, I suppose, but only if, the self incriminating guilt or lack of confidence is already there. As far as racial slurs, there have NEVER BEEN ANY and how dare you “accidentally” leave that part there with the “no swearing”, implying that I make such slurs. I know exactly what you meant, by the way you did it. You know, Ken approves these posts….they are as F*^*&^ clean as he allows, period. If you have a problem with the language in the post, you should talk to him. Here again, you IMPLY WRONGLY, that I have control over that. Switch and bait, seems to be your modus operandi, never get to the DIRECT POINT (counter point). While you certainly have the right to express your OPINION, I also have the RIGHT to correct any recognized inconsistencies and out and out misinformation about any topic that I have better information on. If you read my post to Halfkin (repeat info here) it more than clarified my position. In the posited scenario of “drop of the hat” nationwide gun confiscation, YOU ARE WRONG, period. I am not a prima dona and don’t expect to be right all the time, but this subject matter is in an area where, to the best of my knowledge, I AM THE SUBJECT MATTER EXPERT here. Let it go dude, seriously. You have apparently, since you won’t respond to my questions, no knowledge of what you adamantly pontificate about, have no insightful concerns about the lack of logic and cogent argument, about which you speak showing a complete lack of evidentiary foundation for your position. You have no logical or knowledge based leg to stand on, it’s that simple. That is the whole argument, period. I think it is more than obvious to most of the readers here, where the issues are.
…for those following this thread of this particular comment string, ‘Don’ replied yet again, and I’ve decided not to post it and any further comments on this one… because it is no longer productive and simply has become a school yard fight. Tripod had kindly notified me separately that he was dropping it on this one anyway…
Well I got a little more time to write
Also tripod – look at what happened in New Orleans
National Guardsmen i.e. the military & law enforcement did take guns from law abiding citizens and broke into their houses to take their guns too.
Heres a 7 year old article written just after Katrina in New Orleans:-
http://reason.com/archives/2005/09/10/defenseless-on-the-bayou
READ IT – This proves what I have written before – REMEMBER THOSE WHO DO NOT LEARN FROM THE LESSONS AND/OR MISTAKES OF HISTORY WILL REPEAT THE THEM.
I DO NOT WANT TO BE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE even if you are…
Don.
Apples and oranges. The issue was NATIONAL gun confiscation (as you brouched it) and whether or not the military would cooperate with that. NO was unique and what you assert happened there truly happened, no argument. HOWEVER, mayor Ray Nagin ORDERED THE CONFISCATIONS and the NO police forces (the most corrupt in the nation) were supplemented with state troopers from New Jersey and New York where the gun laws are significantly gun unfriendly and different from Louisiana’s. Were there some NG troops invovled, yes. Did they do so because it was a clear cut issue, no. If anything it was bedlam and some things like that are to be expected. Again apples and oranges, per your argument, national gun confiscation in otherwise peaceful times without some mitigating (not that that would be right either) events, by using the military ain’t gonna happen, period.
Tripod on your writing:- “” I’m talking about “tomorrow at my direction, the U.S. military will begin collecting firearms from all citizens…blah blah blah.” It ain’t gonna happen. Not soon. Five years, ten years, ha, who knows. I don’t. But not right now.”" Heres my response:-
The article written is about making domestic civilians who are called “doomsday preppers” (probably also anyone else like “gun nuts”) a domestic enemy.
Heres what Pastor Martin Niemoller wrote after WW2 about what happened in Germany:-
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out–
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out–
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out–
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.
Neither of us can say that the military definitely will or won’t take guns in a marshal law situation, however, on the gradual incrementation of laws that have been crawling up on us, espcially over the past 11 years and seeing New Orleans as a testing ground, it has already happened, therefore with reasonable logic under a similar circumstance where the military is introduced, there is a likely chance that it could happen again as doomsday preppers or people with guns can with the stroke of a pen or a verbal request be deemed “domestic” terrorists.
I hope that circumstance will never happen, remember, “never say never”.
don; are you SHOUTING?
No not shouting – raising my voice a little to EMPHASIZE certain words.
Afraid I’m with Don on this one – a constitution is just a bit of paper, plain and simple.
You don’t have any rights. Rights which are granted by a governing body are not rights at all, merely temporary privilages which the governing body may suspend at any time they see fit.
Look at the constitutional law of the United Kingdom for example. Much more powerful than the constitution of the United States which is based upon it, article 5 reads ‘without conviction’ rather than your ‘without due process of law’. Due process of law can merely be achieved by changing the law, but attaining a conviction still means attaining a conviction even if the law has been changed to get it done.
The Bill of Rights 1688/89 is the contract between the people and the monarch(who is empowered to form a government) in which basic rights are granted to the people and the foundation of common law, in exchange for the Monarch being granted their office. The Monarchs Coronation Oath is the promise made by the person receiving the office of Monarch to uphold the law (i.e. The Bill of Rights)
It is the responsibility of the Monarch and his/her government to raise forces e.g. Police, Armed Forces etc. To defend the realm and uphold the law (primarily The Bill of Rights, by which the Monarch is granted power and which is the foundation of our common law).
Our Police and Armed Forces DO NOT uphold this law (under this most fundamental piece of legislation Police On-The-Spot Fines are illegal) they do as they are told. Period.
Our Prime Minister, Mr Cameron, can appear on breakfast television and tell the masses that the UK (A Constitutional Monarchy, by definition) has no constitution. This action – a representative of the Monarchs contract with the people, telling the people that there is NO CONSTITUTIONAL LAW – means what?
Simple Question: Does our Queen hold office by the ‘Divine Right of Kings’ or is her contract with the people broken?
If anybody over there (in the states) seriously thinks that by common consensus the individual private soldiers will uphold the second amendment (or any part of your constitution), then I would suggest that person take off his/her rose tinted glasses.
P.S. Tripod: ‘Sturmgewehr’ = Assault Rifle (StG44/MP44, to be precise), I think you mean the Nazi BrownShirts ‘Sturmabteilung’ = Stormtroopers.
Anaon; You’re right, I did mean brown shirts…was watching the “Firefly” brown coats unite on TV and typing and it was late..a little “bleed over”. Sturmgewehr was a brain fart as I meant neither. My intended word was “sturmtruppen” as a more definitive word than sturmabteilung as it does not translate as well (nitpicking) even though that is the word associated with the SS. Without getting into a historical pissing contest I think most CLASSICAL historians perceive the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights to be the WRITTEN pinnacle of the existential fight for freedom the world around. Now having said that, it is without any hesitation that this is all based on the Magna Carta and the subsequent (your) Bill of Rights, English common-law along with some of the more avant-garde French thinkers and philosophers of the times. The perception of your laws though are regarded differently by you than our laws are regarded by us. For those that understand, NO DOCUMENT gives anyone a right, period. Not even our Constitution or Bill of Rights. As the Declaration of Independence states so eloquently;
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
“Self evident…and endowed…with certain unalienable rights” It doesn’t get much clearer than that about the origins of our “rights” and that they come from no person or group of people. Your difference is in how you regard your heritage via your monarchy and 1000+ years of being, whereas we ONLY see our heritage of freedom through these documents, without any intermediary. I know this sounds like a trite point but it is very meaningful in the understanding of our ethos and mores. While technically you are very right, they are only pieces of paper, they are very special pieces of paper to us and as our national identity they are our version of “God save the Queen”, so to speak. Our social ethos is significantly different than that of the UK, common heritage or not. While many things we do seem strange to others (second amendment and all) they are not strange to us. Oh, to be sure the PTB are trying to cow down as many as will, but there is a demographic that will not be cowed down.
Believe me, dear Sir: there is not in the British empire a man who more cordially loves a union with Great Britain than I do. But, by the God that made me, I will cease to exist before I yield to a connection on such terms as the British Parliament propose; and in this, I think I speak the sentiments of America.
—Thomas Jefferson, November 29, 1775
Yeah, me too, regardless of what government we are talking about. We’ll have to ATD otherwise. You can read the other posts, but within the boundaries of a nationwide gun confiscation plan, the military would not do it. It would foment an outright revolt. I don’t wear tinted glasses and have spent a lot of time in the military and I think I have a more knowledgeable and contemporaneous perspective about that than most. Now I’m not talking about incementalism or other bizarre scenarios or extreme circumstances. I’m talking about “tomorrow at my direction, the U.S. military will begin collecting firearms from all citizens…blah blah blah.” It ain’t gonna happen. Not soon. Five years, ten years, ha, who knows. I don’t. But not right now.
Hi Anon,
I just read what you wrote and it is very interesting and indeed refreshing to read all the points you have made in your comments.
Indeed the situation in the UK is similar to the situation in the U.S that rights are being stripped away like an onion layer by layer and it is us the people who will be crying and the government who will be laughing.
Also the movie “V for Vendatta” made about six years ago in 2006 is based on a comic character written during the Thatcher era in the UK (the era of “thee Iron Lady”), however, art imitates life and what you wrote reminded me of the politics of the movie.
Indeed a great line from the movie goes something like this “People should not be afraid of their government, a government should be afraid of their people”.
Again if what happened in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina is the fuse which has been lit in the minds of the military, how long will it take to go off? in a larger crisis of epidemic cities wide and/or states wide in the U.S.
Plus too the DHS has taken over many branches of law enforcement to some degree, even Amtrak (the interstate train authority) are on board, so in time I and others I am sure believe that they will have a bigger say in what the National Guard do, as well as the regular US Army, the Marines, USAF & all the branches of the military.
Indeed the “Divine Right of the President” I believe has resulted in more Executive Orders in the current Presidency than at any other time.
Executive Orders basically bypass Senate and Congress and really are just leading to marshal law or a lessening of constitutional rights on the domestic front.
If a President passes an Executive Order that cancels Halloween, then noone can go out trick or treating here tonight.
It would probably take something like this to WAKE PEOPLE UP, as the tricks of the authorities is to treat us usually in the realms of a horror movie at Halloween.
Don.
I just don’t want to believe that the actual military note I say MILITARY..would go for gun confisication. I would think our fellow Americans would not sit by and see our rights stripped away. With that being said, this is not the the same America. Some may believe whatever our current prez says and are loyal to him, I don’t really know. I know down in Texas, most military are very conservative, but they always follow their commander in chief. On the record they will not speak out against him. That is their training, I know several in the military. So I am clueless how they would be in this situation. I guess you just have to be prepared for any situation. Do you think we even have enough military to enact martial law?
Hello Texasgirl,
That was an interesting question you asked about is there enough military to operate martial law.
The answer is probably yes, as Washingtons military is large enough to invade any country in the world and so probably large enough to operate martial law here.
Though their resources might be spread thin in some rural areas, the majority of the forces would probably be in urban areas where most of the population resides.
Here are some numbers about the total active military circa 2010 i.e. 1,445,000 and the breakdown in the different branches are – 562,000 US Army – 203,000 US Marines – 332,000 Navy – 323,00 USAF – 41,000 Coast Guard.
Active Ground Troops including the Army and Marines is about 765,000.
Now there is also the Reserves and their breakdown is as follows:-
Army National Guard 362,000 – Army Reserve 205,000 – Marines Reserve 39,000 – Navy Reserve 65,000 – Air National Guard 108,000 – Air Force Reserve 70,000 – Coast Guard Reserve 8,000 making a total of about 857,000 + Other DOD Personnel 109,00 = 966,000.
National Guard plus Army Reserve and Marines = 606,000.
Active Ground Troops 765,000 + Reserves 606,00 = 1,371,000 soldiers on the ground.
Our military is the 2nd biggest in the world right next to China and we have a budget of about 712 Billion assigned to the military in 2011 making up about 20% of our total expenditures for that year.
This is just the military, if you want to include other “related stuff” to the paramilitary of DHS and law enforcement and development of new research etc., you are going into the trillions – who knows – 2 to 3 trillion dollars? a year might be a good estimate.
For the approx. 712 Billion estimate – this is a graph to show the expenditure in 2011:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png
Here is an interesting website that compares the US to the rest of the world and the graphs show the military spending broken down:-
http://www.globalissues.org/article/75/world-military-spending
They estimate about 40% of our budget is paid with an additional 20% (for past wars) together with the current 20% for current expenditure on the military.
This is a topic I have considered myself, especially due to the fact that my son is currently enlisted. It is my belief that there would be a few soldiers that would follow direct orders, no matter what. The majority, however, understand that AMERICANS support the military, NOT the government. Family is very important to our enlisted personnel. It is their family ties that get them through their training, and keep them focussed on their jobs and deployments. These soldiers are a close-knit bunch that would treat American citizens how they would want their families to be treated. It would be a horrible tragedy to put them in such a situation to make that decision. But, I don’t think it would be a difficult decision. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. Of course, we need to consider what information has been supplied to these soldiers before they were given their orders. It is possible misleading information, (lies), could turn our own against us. Hopefully the government realizes that a modern civil war is not what we need at this point. All we can do is remain vigilant. Right now, WE are not the enemy.
Remember guys this is all “supposition”. It may or may not happen. In regards to “it will absolutely never happen” I am sure if you asked someone in the 50′s, 60′s or even the 70′s or 80′s if they thought the government would ever be so controlling as to use xrays to see your grandmothers or childs private parts just so they could get on a plane, or strip search you at the airport. The comments would have been just as absolute on the “Not a chance in …..” or a very strong “that is an invasion into my privacy” But now they do just that with the government formed TSA and the population does as they are told!!! If you argue and cause a stink you can be arrested. So as we sit here today with people arguing and fighting once again about supposition (What if the governement decides to raid preppers and disarm them). So tell me those of us that are over 20 years old here when you were younger did you ever think in a million years that would happen???? Would you have argued the point???
It is the “what if” factor that makes us prepare. In trying to think of all the “what if” scenarios yes a government takeover and control of the people does enter peoples minds. Especcially with the rights that have been stripped away so far…
Here is some “what if” for you….
What if our military is taken over by the chinese???? Their military is bigger than ours and they are not our friend…
What if our congress is overthrown by a president who decides to say to they can go jump off the Bay Bridge (Originally from Oakland and the phrase has stuck) and he decides to be dictator?
What if our military is fed a line and told that certain populations are domestic terrorists?
What if space aliens come down and take over the world? (yes far fetched, but still a supposition and could be a concern of some who believe)
What if an asteroid hits our world and throws everything into chaos worse than what was in New Orleans?
You see what I mean there are lots of “what If’s” that most people would say cound never happen. Strip searching at Airports would have been one of those suppositions a few decades back… But now it is a very real thing…
So instead of arguing that something won’t happen lets go back to discussing the “What If’s” and what would you do “If” so that others can get help in coming up with plans for “what If”. That is what prepping and survival is all about…
What am I doing about this what If? I am getting my concealed carry permit this month (To protect myself away from home) and also am going to buy a cross bow. That way if “they (whomever “they” may be)” come in and demand my guns I will still have protection.(too dangerous to argue with a batallion of whomever “they” may be, I will be smart and hand them over, at least some of them)
Remember the second amendment says we can keep and bear arms. It does not specify how many or what kind. We could all get busted down to one single shot shotgun, Primitive black powder, air rifles or cross bows. And we would still be allowed to “keep and bear arms”. Since black powder was what was available when our constitution was written “they” could argue that it is the only kind of firearm that the founding fathers intended us to have… Do I believe that would happen??? No way but it definately is a “What If”…
Thank you, Be safe and smile ;o)
@Christine, well said. The “what if’s” are indeed what motivates preppers. Each of the “what-if’s” have their own likelihood factor and impact factor. Some are more likely, others are very unlikely. It is the discussion of the “what-if’s” that is helpful for other Readers… it presents ideas and perhaps things they haven’t thought of before. It opens the mind beyond our existing borders.
In any event, you’re doing the right thing getting that concealed carry permit (that’s the first thing that we did when we moved to this state earlier this year). I also have a crossbow, and is another great tool to include in one’s tool chest
Note: when you store your food, you really need to secure them in proper containers. Like noodles, do not accept the wrapping as a good storage container. If in your area you have nats, they can and will eat through the wrapping. So take and put them in something like a tuperware container or glass canning jars. Then you can stop insect attack on you foods.
I dont believe that the guard would long term enforce orders to take guns… But how many “terrorists” will be held at gunpoint before the guard realizes what is going on…
@tripodxl….
Do you really thing that the order will come down to go door to door taking guns? If that was the order I would expect the military to disobey that one. BUT thats not how it will happen… first police force will target the houses that are easy for them to take the guns from. then in short order the guard and military will start getting orders to “assist in the arrest of this or that terrorist”
No military member will disobey any order to take down a terrorist… it will take time for the military to realize the truth behind what they have been doing… The press will be reporting on this or that suspected terrorist being arrested and the individual in the military will be of the mindset that they are taking down domestic terrorists …. In the beginning military members will hear rumors of the truth which will be disreguarded.
it wont be until there are enough military members that are ordered to neighbors and/or friends houses that the real truth will be seen…. Now starts the soldier on soldier war where if you speak openly you will be seen as supporting the terrorism… eventually the military will be split…
There will always be a fraction of the people (including) soldiers that feel that citizens shouldnt have guns….So in the long run the military will split, those who believe in the second amendment will becom deserters, treasonous soldiers and nutcases…
this will be the point where hell really comes to the face of this earth.