Do we humans have enough elbow room – enough room or space to live, move, work, and think freely and independently without being overly restricted, regulated, herded or conformed in order to coexist? Is it natural for us to live in crowded spaces?
While there are still spaces with plenty of elbow room, today’s modern world and modern way-of-life presents a perceived requirement to live and work in regions where there is very little elbow room…in order to achieve the ‘modern lifestyle’ and measure of ‘success’.
‘Back in the day’, there were far more people who lived in regions with plenty of elbowroom – regions which naturally fostered independent-minded lifestyles – regions which developed unique styles of thinking and living – perhaps out of necessity.
However today’s lack of elbow room squelches independent-minded thinking and actions, perhaps out of necessity for such great numbers of people to coexist in smaller spaces.
When people are crammed together, life is very different from those who have plenty of elbow room. One’s outlook, thought process, demands, expectations, and way-of-life are often quite different. Again, perhaps out of necessity to coexist in such an environment.
Has this essentially led to two America’s?
Two generally different ideologies?
Is this healthy?
Today’s roads, cars, and easier accessibility both to and from the rural regions of ‘elbow room’ have enabled a tremendous shift of not only where we live, but how we live, how we think, what we perceive as ‘normal’, our goals, motivations, and what we perceive as a measure of ‘success’. Our very way of life.
I know this, because I have lived in both places. I have spent periods of my life in population-dense regions, some more than others, while today I live in a region that has plenty of elbow room. There are probably more deer, rabbits, coyotes, and bears than humans 😉
While comparing way-of-life between now and then (reflecting back to the time periods of living in regions so densely populated), the distinctions are clear. Having been both places, it’s interesting to reflect and compare – and apply those thoughts to some of what we’re experiencing these days in our crowded ‘modern’ world…
During the timeline of human history, we have always had plenty of elbow room. However it has only been these recent decades (a century) whereby we’ve exploded in population and have entirely changed our way-of-life. Has this rapid change gone up against our DNA? Are meant to live under such crowded conditions?
World Population: The Seventh Billion Came In Just 12 Years
Technological, industrial, and medical breakthrough’s have enabled our population explosion. As humans, we have adapted to living longer lives and have developed intricate systems of infrastructure to keep us alive.
The urban and suburban regions continue to expand as more people are born into it and as more from the rural regions move in (to obtain their measure of ‘success’). While I’m not knocking the wonderful attributes of our technological expansions, the human product of such development has (to an extent) changed who we are and how we live (in those areas especially).
Ideologies are different (some extremely so). Measures of success are often different. Measures of happiness are often different.
And don’t forget this one: The risks are often different (e.g. systemic risks of sustaining population-dense regions).
Regions with plenty of elbow room while typically financially poorer, they tend to be rich in independence, land ownership, self-sufficiency, self-sustainability, an increased sense of morality and general respect, and filled with nature’s plentiful awe and beauty… – all starkly different than the densely populated regions.
Regions with little elbow room while mostly financially richer (although perceived riches are often simply ‘debt’), they have much higher costs of living, are filled with more stress, are entirely dependent upon external supply chains and infrastructure, and people generally don’t trust each other. The conveniences there are plentiful and many of them very beneficial to life (modern medical centers, etc..) however there are inherent systemic risks.
Back to the original questions…
Has this essentially led to two America’s?
I believe the differences are stark enough to stereotype into two generally different lifestyles, ideologies and way-of-life. While the land mass of people living in regions with elbow room vastly outsize that of the other, the fact is that a majority of people now live in geographically small (comparatively) urban and suburban spaces and are the majority voice which today shapes the ‘laws of the land’.
Two generally different ideologies?
Yes, certainly (generally / perhaps mostly), which also tends to reflect in political associations.
Is this healthy?
It’s just the way it is. Everyone has a choice as to where to live and what life to lead. The majority have chosen to live in population-dense regions, and it works up until the time that it doesn’t. And when it doesn’t, those who live in regions with lots of elbow room will be the one’s who survive…
Hopefully some of this ramble makes sense 😉
What do you think about this?
things being the way they are right NO there is not enough room
Studies using rats have shown that over crowding leads to anti-social behavior. No doubt about it and provable. Anecdotal evidence supports this. Prisons show this to be true, although it could be said that they are already full of anti-social types. More realistically, look at the major cities; the rate of murder per 100,000 population is about eight times greater than in rural areas. So far in 2016 there have been 42 homicides in Baltimore, MD and 121 in Chicago. On the other hand, Anoka county, MN has had none. As best I can determine, there have been 3 since 2001. So, YES overcrowding is creating some terrible conditions and it is in all of our best interests to know this. Some people can leave the cities if they want to, most cannot. At least be aware of the reality of your situation and have a plan.
I agree with this analogy. I read a study on crowded rats in a cage over a period of time led to cannibalism and they killed the babies, and had gangs of related rats killing others, even though plenty of food was available. Destructive social behaviors resulted, much like with humans in a crowded city.
I grew up in a suburban area in Illinois with a woods and rolling pastures bordering our home where I spent most my time. We were forced to move to town when my father left us, and I hated it. There were gangs, bad kids, and crime I had to deal with along with the traffic noise and no privacy. The only place I felt free was when we spent our summers at our grandparents isolated log cabin on a chain of lakes in northern Mn.
I swam unfettered in the crystal clear lake in my birthday suit. Imagine doing that at the city swimming pool. I could walk barefoot through the woods without people yelling at me to stay out of their yards. I could fish for clean and healthy fish along the shore of the front yard which could not be done in town by the muddy polluted Illinois river. I could pick berries where there were none in town. I could breathe in fresh air and not polluted air from the cars. trucks and factories. I saw beautiful creatures never found in town, and they didn’t care I was sitting in my nightie on the dock drinking coffee. The nights were bathed with a moonlight stillness, never experienced in town with neon signs, street lights, and honking traffic. Our doors were unlocked at the cabin for there was no crime or people in the area, where in town we had a robbery at my home, gangs of kids threatening harm to me and beat on me, and a mentally ill man tried to break into our home.
I had lived in the awful city and several country homes across the country, but I returned to the area where I spent my summers. It was a fair trade to sacrifice a fast pace of living, crime all around with higher wages, higher cost of living, for a lower income, lower crime rate, and area where I found freedom, independence, peace and solitude. And yep, I can run naked through my woods and no one would notice. 🙂
@ Stardust; “And yep, I can run naked through my woods and no one would notice. :-)” I know that you can guess what is coming… It sure would make it easier to hunt the animals (after blinding) when they have witnessed the above!! LOL (in my case, anyway.) Loclyokel
Urban areas tend to be more ‘diverse’. ‘Cultural enrichment’ comes as a bonus. Yea, man—bask in the benefits of multiculturalism…
Yes, the people living where there is elbow room will definitely have a better chance of survival!
My goodness, I thought I was a goner a few times just the other day when I took the NJ Turnpike heading north to get our pick up truck from the lot!
The lot was just 7 miles outside of NYC.(Unfortunately, the best deal we could find on the truck we wanted to buy was there!)
Oh My Goodness what a jumbled mess of ridiculousness!
I’ve lived in NJ all my life but in rural areas (yes there are rural areas in NJ):)But with that said, I’ve only taken the Turnpike maybe twice in my life! And I am in my 40’s!
Saturday was the second time. Never again will travel that road!!!
Especially not to go north!
I can’t even describe the animalistic way people were driving; taking their lives and everyone elses lives around them as a joke.
For example; a motorcyclist was taking his feet off the pedals and dragging them on the road at a high rate of speed, and then periodically taking both hands off the handles, and swerving back and forth!
And cars were constantly weaving in and out of lanes where people were already going 80 mph.
Then when we got to lot, it was on a very congested road, on a matchbox lot and the vehicles were parked about 8 inches apart! That’s how tight it was! Like sardines in a can!!! It was bizarre.
I was white knuckling it the whole time and my blood pressure didn’t go down until we got back to our little farm town.
Two completely different worlds!
I honestly don’t know how people do it. Meaning the one’s who live up there, or take that commute every day to work in NYC or surrounding area. Or even the one’s that enjoy visiting there all the time!
To me it’s nothing but a giant ball of stress on a “good day”. I can’t IMAGINE what it would be like in a shtf scenario.
I’d rather live in a tent in the woods and face the threat of bears than live in that tangled mess of chaos.
At least we have a strong pick up truck now that we can put all our supplies in and get the heck out when the time arises.
I’d like to get a trailer hooked up to the back of the truck as well.
I like that we are surrounded by farms and I know all the back roads.
But I guess I am kidding myself to think we could stick it out here for a long period of time after a shtf scenario.
All that chaos is still a little too close for comfort.
Our plan is to leave in 2 years, but who knows, we may have to escape sooner.
I literally “hugged” the ground when we got home from that trip and thanked Jesus we made it home alive!! LOL! I’m not built for that crap! I belong in wide open spaces surrounded by nature.
Interesting topic today!
Funny, I grew up in a the suburbs, first married home in the suburbs (which was growing more congested every day), moved north once, then north again.
We have a little homestead which we love. But DH and I would love to go a little more north (not too far) but from where we live and north (sorry said it again) is so beautiful. There are main roads nearby but far enough away from suburban-opolis.
For me I just love the nature, and it so nourishing for my soul.
I love to hear the local birds. We even name the crows.
I praise God for all we have out here.
Our home was built in 1904 an old “salt box” house that needs some fix up.
Most of our efforts have gone to building up our farm so far, but that is ok.
I would rather have a sturdy old house that needs some TLC and a little homestead, than a mansion in the ‘burb or city.
It is just about spring and I love the smell of the earth.
How nice we can let as many dandelions grow as we want.
I plan to eat quite a few this year.
You all have a really good day.
Know that I’m thinking of you
Be blessed in faith, health, provision, and gratitude 🙂
There is so much wrong with the way the cities are built up today that one just needs to look to the aftermath of Sandy in the Breezy Point neighborhood. I remember seeing an aero photo of the fire that totally destroyed about 80 plus homes. It looked like a wave had swept through the area. Most likely the fire started in one home and because of the storm, the fire went out of control and started to spread to nearby homes. Everything was burnt to the ground in a large swath.
In a SHTF scenario where there is no power, if a fire should start somewhere in a large suburban area, then most of the city will likely burn down. I don’t care how careful you are, you don’t know how careless your neighbors will be with their candles. I know someone who was woken up in the middle of the night by the fire department and chased out into the cold because a careless neighbor had started a fire using a candle in an unsafe manner.
Without our current technology, the world couldn’t feed the whole population. It’s not just the space needed, but the water. Soon, even with our technology, there won’t be enough food and water to go around. In some places, that is already true.
On another topic, Agenda 21 is trying to encourage (force) people to live in postage stamp sized houses on tiny lots, or in even smaller apartments in high-rise buildings. Every week or so, as you scroll down the news stories on Yahoo.com, you come across an article or advertisement for 200 sq ft houses and how wonderful it is to stop worrying about material things and having more money for education and travel. There are several shows on tv touting tiny house living. We are being indoctrinated.
It is a choice not to have the huge mortgage debt, taxes, and maintenance of large home living in a tiny house according to the tiny house owners on the show when I watched it. These people would rather not keep up the Jones with material things and use the money they save for other outside of the home activities. What these owners have expressed was a freedom not to be burdened with an enormous expense of a large home.
I live in an area of tiny/small homes and cabins on large lots of forested lands and lakes and it has been this way since the area was logged. In fact, the last home I lived in was very small, but it was paid for, long before Agenda 21 was known. There are 3 tiny homes down the road from me. People live in these homes for the reasons I expressed. Lower income people can’t afford a large home. There is less space to heat, less space to clean, less taxes to pay, less expense to maintain. Their gardens are larger than their homes, and I see these are very independent people.
Yes, tiny homes can be a good thing in a rural area if you have land to allow space between dwellings and space for a garden or farm animals. But the ones I have seen cost as much as big homes. You pay extra for all the innovative ways to store your stuff and for the technology that allows some things to have multiple uses; a desk becomes a dining table at mealtime and then a bed at night….
The tiny homes that allow two of three times as many people to occupy an acre are the ones I am complaining about.
DaisyK
I agree totally with you.
Crowding a dozen tiny homes onto one lot, and charging near regular house prices is …..a swindle…unhealthy….etc etc…
I haven’t heard or seen this.
DaisyK said: “Agenda 21 is trying to encourage (force) people to live in postage stamp sized houses on tiny lots”
“But the ones I have seen cost as much as big homes.”
Could you please show a website reference where these tiny homes are as high priced as regular large homes in the area and people are forced into them? Thanks, if you find one.
There have been several on Yahoo’s main page — all scrolled off now.
I googled it and found a few:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/betsyschiffman/2015/11/27/tiny-houses-pay-more-for-less/#7549989c6e46
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/photos/million-dollar-tiny-homes-sale-21487434/image-21489741
http://tinyhousetalk.com/tiny-heirloom-luxury-tiny-houses/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2015/02/17/ultra-posh-tiny-homes-the-small-house-movement-goes-luxe/#209285bd14a5
None of the above are ones that I had seen before. What I found out just now, is that tiny houses cost more per square foot even if they are not luxury homes because certain things cost at least as much no matter what the size, i.e. hot water heater, stove, toilet, etc. etc.
People aren’t being forced into them yet. But the idea of Agenda 21 is to limit human impact on the environment and create a “sustainable” population. They also want to fully control all aspects of population and population growth. That’s implicit in their goals, not specifically stated. A lot of what is said sounds good on paper, but it’s implementation (in the plans already presented) requires people to be confined in easily controllable blocks, land ownership to be abolished, and populations to be reduced in the name of sustainable development. They also have plans in place to redistribute massive populations to areas that can sustain those populations more easily.
“Participating in a UN advocated planning process would very likely bring out many of the conspiracy- fixated groups and individuals in our society… This segment of our society who fear ‘one-world government’ and a UN invasion of the United States through which our individual freedom would be stripped away would actively work to defeat any elected official who joined ‘the conspiracy’ by undertaking LA21. So we call our process something else, such as comprehensive planning, growth management or smart growth.” J. Gary Lawrence, advisor to President Clinton’s Council on Sustainable Development.
Read carefully.
351 Page PDF:
https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/content/documents/Agenda21.pdf
Stardust:
My answer has been in moderation since one o’clock. See my answer below about the dangers of living in a house that is 10 feet from another.
I attached a link for Agenda 21, so when it’s moderated you’ll see that. The goal is to have all humans in residential and urban complexes and reduce the population to sustainable levels through “women’s rights” campaigns and other means. They also have plans to shift large populations to more sustainable areas, eliminate private land ownership and create large demographic databases so that every member of the population can be tracked.
People are not, at this time, being forced into tiny housing or apartment dwelling (at least not here in the US), but the push has begun for people to make that shift on their own.
Here in Virginia, the Agenda 21 is in full swing. Almost all property listings in Virginia are either tied into a fee-based, gated community lifestyle (and under 10 acres) or they are bound into the “Conservation Easement” prohibitions. We got very discouraged trying to find some BOL in our state because the only way we could buy acreage in quantity was to buy an existing “farm”. We aren’t willing to pay that much out in cash.
With respect to the concentrated population issue, in Virginia, there are only THREE Districts that essentially control this entire state. These are in the city areas with 2 of the 3 being the DC-metro regions. Their lifestyles and rat-raced mindset force politics to always sway to the socialist-Democrat side. I doubt we stay in Virginia much longer….it’s gotten THAT bad.
DaisyK, I completely agree with what you’ve shared. I’ve seen several shows and seen enough online videos and blogs that it has become obvious the “tiny house” phenomenon is yet another way to manipulate the masses. These are not minimalist homes, but simply another way to yank money from the younger gens who want to be stylish and ‘hip’. If they want to be frugal, a used RV or a single-wide trailer would do the trick…but those aren’t acceptable in the GenX/Millennial gens’ “Tiny Home” movement.
Modern Throwback
“become obvious the “tiny house” phenomenon is yet another way to manipulate the masses.”
I have seen many Tiny Homes that I loved. Some were even well built (I thought). But as I have seen the shows on t.v., some of these with HUGE prices, and seen more and more “push” for these, I have often wondered,
if a large part of this “tiny house push” was not to acclimate masses to the idea, so they could be pushed into shoebox size apartments or such…
Easier to control a large group of people if they are all shoved together.
If we can’t farm on an industrial scale, 7 1/4 billion humans can’t stay here. I once read that 50% of the ‘organic’ produce grown in USA comes from 5 farms in CA. Old McDonald is a busy man.
When I grew up in rural Montana as a child we went to town maybe once every two weeks. If a neighbor or even a stranger came to our home they were welcomed and offered lunch or dinner depending on the time of day. We looked forward to and enjoyed peoples company. Today I have security fences and no trespassing signs around all of my property. Out of state people have pored into my area and have brought their big city manners and attitudes with them. The leftist here are now trying to bring Syrian refugees into our area which can only change the social dynamics even more. Yes rural people do have a different attitude and mind set compared to urban masses. I have experienced it personally. The country people I grew up with never gave a second thought to driving with tire chains in a snow storm, butchering a deer or elk, changing breaks on a vehicle or any of the other million self sufficient skills needed to survive in the country. This attitude I regret to say is not as common as it use to be with my modern neighbors. Manners and respect are also becoming a thing of the past.
I have always lived along and on the east coast, in several different states. When I visit relatives in South Dakota, periodically, I am always amazed at how friendly and courteous the people there are. Comparing the population density of the east coast to those wide open spaces out west, it’s not hard to see why. The formula is simple: More people, More problems.
To All,
This morning I just finished reading One Second After, the book. Well, the book was about the after effects of an EMP but a plague would do the same thing. There would be a return to a lot of elbow room, good manners eventually, and mutual respect. Obesity would be thing of the past. With the extra elbow room combat fishing all the river front would be a thing of the past. Yes, many people are moving into Texas from California and New York, real jerks. They screwed up the land there and now are ruining Texas. I do yearn for the old fashion elbow room and pleasantries of old.
Off topic:
I just received a government survey, allegedly from Medicare. There is no place for my name, but I am sure the bar code identifies me, as well as my doctor. I don’t like the questions; some are obviously intended to check up on my doctor (waiting times, if she used a hand-held device to input and review my info, did she show respect for me, etc.) But some were personal, (name of my Part D insurance company, how many people in my household, , etc.) I am concerned that some questions might be used to determine my political opinions (complaints about Medicare, do I tell my doctor when I disagree with her, etc.) and my eligibility to own a gun (i.e. “How would you rate your mental or emotional health?” “Do you need help managing your care?” “Did someone help you fill out this form?”)
With small spaces, there is less privacy and less freedom. Now with the government wanting to know everything about us and restrict some of our rights if they think we have any emotional problems or of we speak up and disagree with authority figures, etc. I am starting to feel very closed in.
I moved to Wyoming in the first place because it has the fewest people, only 2.5 people per square mile in the NW quarter of the state. But more people come in all the time, and most of them are from California it seems.
@ DaisyK
Don’t answer it, and do NOT mail it back.
Take it to your SS or Medicare office. These new insurance companies and solicitors are very slick now-a-days.
— But some were personal, (name of my Part D insurance company, how many people in my household, , etc.) —
FYI, the Medicare and SS already know these things there is not a reason for them to be asking again.
NRP
NRP
“FYI, the Medicare and SS already know these things there is not a reason for them to be asking again.”
VERY good points
I have been hearing stories about senior citizens and veterans being denied their 2nd amendment rights when Medicare or other branch of the government finds that they are taking antidepressants or can’t fill out their own forms to name a few things they look for. It is part of the Obama agenda to disarm everybody.
I have also heard that Medicare is sending out forms to seniors who haven’t been to a doctor lately. If no answer, they think you might be deceased and so they stop sending Social Security checks. Since I broke my leg a year and a half ago, they should know I was alive then.
If I do fill it out, I will think about every question and the ulterior motive they might have.
Will they compare this answer to the # of residents I will claim when they start rationing? There are four “people” here (me and my 3 pets.)
What is the state of my physical and mental health? Both are excellent, of course
Am I dissatisfied with my government, my doctor, my hospital? Of course not.
Did I get my flue shot? Uh, yes (fingers crossed. 20 years ago.) Did someone have to remind you? No
Do I smoke or drink? Truthfully no
Do I take any medication? no
Do I have any trouble eating, dressing, bathing, or using the toilet? no
My education? Law degree (more crossed fingers)
My race? Black, just like Obama (more crossed fingers)
@ DaisyK
As far as the firearm/gun question, take all of your firearms to the shed or car and answer the question “do you have a firearm in the house” that way you can truthfully answer “no”.
NRP
NRP:
They didn’t ask about firearms; that would have been too obvious, but they asked all the questions that would allow them to take my guns away if they thought I was sick, forgetful, feeble-minded, on drugs or alcohol, anti-government, etc.
I decided to throw the form away. It is already in my trash.
DaisyK
I agree you are quite right to be suspicious and concerned.
Personally, I would not fill it out.
Absolutely I believe you would be identified, in some way. Even thirty or forty yrs back, I recall a teacher warning us in a school class, re filling out anonymous surveys, and how they most likely were not. She said they have a variety of means to identify a person (sometimes even sending only one survey out per block, or such), and today, it would be very easy to code it..Maybe even some kind of invisible number, etc…
I wonder, for example, who actually sent this to you?
Can you look up the Medicare number on line, and phone them and ask if they know anything about it? I would not call any number on the form, as who knows who that goes to.
I seem to have lots of ideas popping in to my mind, on who / why this might have been sent….
-all the reasons/concerns you mentioned above (of course)
-a political party/super pak trying to make political hay
-a way to justify raising costs on certain things
-a way to deny benefits for certain people
-a way to justify increased law enforcement
-a way for criminals to finger who might be an easy target
-a way for criminals to find who has something (weapons) worth stealing
etc
please be cautious…
DaisyK
it might be interesting for you, to ask around your neighbours/your block/your town/friends and relatives in other towns close by,
did they get similar survey?
another trick I recall these characters using to identify who is replying / what to which survey..
sometimes each survey will have slightly different questions…
you might be asked about guns
your neighbor asked about dogs
your friend across town asked about allergies
etc
Anon
How about the one Census Bureau checking on your education? It is “voluntary to fill out”, and I am now up to 6 envelopes. All but the last one saw the alligator for consumption. It was delivered by FedEX…..voluntary to fill out….choking on that terminology. Not mad at you, just the what part of not volunteering it do, do they not conceive.
It is getting crowded when they need our educational back ground, business and accounting.
antique collector
they are always checking on something, and the they always is changing
least said, best ..
To Antique Collector:
I used to work for the census bureau. When Bush was President, I believed that the info was confidential and used only for important purposes, such as figuring out the real unemployment rate. But once Obama got into office I started suspecting the worst. For one thing, the employment figures are bogus. They changed the criteria to make Obama and the Democrats look good. All the new jobs have gone to immigrants. Citizens have lost hours, some going to part time.
If the form they have given you is the ACS (American Community Survey) it is mandatory. However, they harass you and harass you, but don’t actually assess the fine ($100) or at least they didn’t a few years ago. The fine for giving false answers is $500.
When I was doing surveys I used to tell people they could skip questions they didn’t want to answer. They didn’t even have to give their names; I could just put “Male Householder” “Female Householder” “Oldest Son” etc. Sometimes people skipped most of the questions and the computer still gave me credit.
You should know that the poor census taker will suffer if they contact you in person or by phone and you refuse. They get bonuses based on their response rate and can lose their jobs if too many of the respondents refuse.
Daisey K
Thanks for the info.
Good info DaisyK,
I knew the Census every ten years was mandatory but are you sure about the American Community Survey being mandatory?
I’ve never received one but I got harassed by Census workers for about 6 months. They called multiple times day and early evening, which I tried to explain I never got the survey.
Then two people showed up at my door saying I needed to get some survey filled out. I ALWAYS have my gun with me and informed them they were trespassing and if they didn’t leave my property immediately I would call the sheriff and explain that two trespassers were threatening me so I shot them in self defense and to send the medical examiner to get their carcusses off my land.
The “about faced” and I never heard from them again.
Slippy
The American Community Survey is what used to be the long form of the census. About 16 years ago they started giving everyone the short form. The long form became the ACS. The short form mainly counts people for the purpose of allocating delegates to the US House of Representatives. If enough people refuse to answer that one, you may cost your state a representative.
The long form is used for things like income, employment, disabilities, education…. They allocate money based on that survey for things like education, roads, hospitals, family services…..
It is just as mandatory as the short form because Congress passed a law requiring everyone to respond, but, as I said, they don’t enforce it.
Thanks Daisy.
God Save This Great Republic!
Being born and raised in Cincinnati, than 10 years in San Diego I can understand the mindset of the “masses” of people, they basically don’t know any better. It was not until 1981 when I moved to the Four Corners that I even realize what it meant to have “elbow room”. Now, having had that room and adapting this “country bumpkin” lifestyle there is no way in he!! I could ever go back to living in a city or the burbs. I feel it would literally kill me to do so. Last time I want to CA, for some unfortunate business, I swore I would NEVER go to CA again, EVER. Talk about rude, nasty, inconsiderate people in the big cities, no way in heck will I go back, period. I left San Diego headed north and did not stop (for gas only) until I left that god forsaken state, its BS laws and ignorant rude aggressive people. Sorry if I offended anyone from CA, I know there are probably good people there…… just the way I feel.
Unfortunately there is more and more of a movement for the “city folks” to find there little spot in the “country”. What is amazing to me is the attitudes of those morons that want the “country lifestyle” yet won’t give up a single “convenience” of city living. Plus they bring the attitude of “I’m better than you” and look down upon those of us that hold our lifestyle dear to our hearts. I’m really sick of the “pretty people” acting like I’m the one with leprosy for wearing warn jeans, old boots, and a dusty shirt after coming from the field and stopping but the local store to fill my old truck with fuel. Hell even Blue barks at them and their pretty $2M 65’ motorhomes towing their $100K Hummer… HAHAHA Good boy Blue, good boy.
So to directly answer the topic at hand, ohhhhh YES there is a difference in the people. And when the Composted Manure finally Entangles the Oscillating Air Circulation Device, where will be a HUGE problem when those masses try to infiltrate the country areas. For I for one have no intentions of rolling over and playing dead simply handing over everything I have worked so hard for…… Just a single word of caution for those who think they can just walk right in and make their selves at home….. “Don’t”.
Just so I’m not misunderstood, I’m really a nice person, have good friends, welcome new people to the area, and welcome friends and good people to my life all the time, (heck I’m a Buddhist for crying out loud, of course I’m a good guy HAHAHA) just keep your “city and burb” attitudes for those whom you can get away with it. Come with a good attitude and not try and change me or mine to your thinking, and we will get along just fine. Cross me and my friends, then you might just have a slight problem.
It’s called being a good neighbor, not an invader.
NRP
PS; yes this “lifestyle” is different and yes it’s a good way to live. I would seriously urge anyone to consider the “country bumpken” way of living, its hard hard work, but well worth it. A different type of being tired at the end of the day. A peaceful tired.
“I’m the one with leprosy for wearing warn jeans, old boots, and a dusty shirt after coming from the field and stopping but the local store to fill my old truck with fuel.”
Heh, heh, that description reminds me of those western character cards by Mike Scovel put out by Leanin’ Tree, you know, the greeting cards country folk love to get.
@ Stardust
What can I say, “I is who I is”.
Personally I enjoy a good hard day bucking hay or driving a field plowing. I might be 62, but I bet I can work the sweat out if most them Gym going “city boys” any day of the week. And when the day is done, drink his ass under the table…. HAHAHA
I may be a paper pusher during the week, but I’m not afraid of a hard day’s work…. “I can stand there watching it all day long” LOLOL.
NRP
NRP I didn’t know i was a life style. My FIL used to say let me get the city boy in the hay field for a day and we will find out what he’s made of. All one has to do is watch the news to see citys are rotting from the inside out.
@ country bumpkin
Please take the phrase “Country Bumpken Lifestyle” as an extreme compliment. Those that don’t know what it means, well “ok” I guess. 🙂 🙂
NRP
@NRP, no offense taken by this Californian. Except the weather, which is usually pretty darn nice, there is less and less to like about CA every day. There’s a reason why companies are leaving in droves (taxes & regulations are a killer here), and most areas are overbuilt and simply too crowded.
I’ve know plenty of Californians who are very nice people. I also know quite a few who are highly materialistic and place no value in the kinds of skills that will be needed most in a crisis. I long for no traffic, cleaner air and a better quality of life, and we are working our way toward that goal every day.
@ So Cal Gal
San Diego weather forecast “Late night low clouds and fog” for the fall and winter, than “Late night fog and low clouds” for the spring and summer LOLOL. I can justify my teasing because I live there for 10 years HAHAHAHA I will admit I had a blast living on Pacific Beach and Mission Bay water front. Of course that was the late 60s and early 70s “Peace Man” and pass the pipe. 🙂 🙁 🙂
NRP
I think humans need elbow room..Lots of elbow room.
I see some of these crowded places, and cringe…
I suppose some are naturally fine in crowds/crowded living, maybe. I always wonder if they are fine, or if the crowding has forced them in to un natural mindsets….
About 1 1/2 years ago they tore down the old farm house across the street from me. The matriarch died a few years before that and the sister in charge of the estate sold the property against the rest of the family’s wishes. So, the put 4 houses in with the minimum 10 ft between houses. The street is 1 1/2 cars wide. meaning one car waits on the other to pass. One driveway is straight across from mine and of course the people have to many cars etc and so park in the gravel in front of their house.They put in gravel instead of grass. I’ve warned them that I will at some point probably back into one of their vehicles. One house is a vacant rental so it’s probably going to get worse. I’ve planted bushes on the front of my house on the grass median to keep them from filling up the area in front of my house with their crap. When someone comes to the vacant rental they can’t seem to leave the driveway without driving onto the grass strip and have killed one bush already.
Can you tell that I totally hate this?
I heard that Daniel Boone one said, “The moment he can see the smoke from a neighbors home, it was time to move.”
My house was 10 feet from my bi-polar neighbor’s house. Two months ago, he locked his dog inside the house and burned it down. He said he did it because he is evil. The fire department said that it could easily have spread to my house too.
BTW, when the firemen opened the back door, the little dog ran out. He has been adopted to another owner.
@ DaisyK
So sorry to hear that you had a bipolar neighbour. My ex is bipolar, as well as his siblings and mother. When we married there was no indication that they were that way. We were married for 24 years before we split and let me tell you, I wouldn’t wish that terror on anyone. Hopefully your neighbour moved on and is no longer there.
kk
He is in a mental institution, at present, but they claim they will charge him with 1st degree arson once he is sane enough for trial. Anyway, he doesn’t have the money to rebuild and his insurance should be no good — so unless he pitches a tent in his back yard he is probably gone. Thank goodness they saved his dog!
I read an article recently that stated that the entire population of the planet could be placed, standing room only, on the big island of Hawaii. The article went on to state that the entire population of the world, divided into 4 person family units, each given an average sized American home and residential lot, would fit into the state of Texas. Taking the writer at his word, not doing the math myself, I would submit that space is not the problem, rather the way that space is utilized, and why.
My ancestors settled in NE Texas in the mid-1800’s. They were farmers and blacksmiths. They, along with other settlers had rich, bottom-land farms some 20 miles east of what is now down-town Dallas. They did not live on their farms, rather they built small homes in a village setting within walking distance of their farmland. They did this for mutual security against the Comanche Indians who still raided the area. Dallas, in the ensuing years, has sprawled out, encompassing this area with unbelievably huge and expensive mansion type homes. This is called progress. That rich farmland will never be recovered. The population in that “metropolis/suburban” setting is totally dependent on a fragile infra-structure that, if/when it collapses, will bring chaos.
I am sure that the transformation I described has been repeated all over our country.
Folks on this blog have mentioned how folks from outside have invaded their idyllic areas of retreat, disrupting the peace and quiet of the area. This has gone on throughout history. Not likely going to change.
Most of that space is desert, ocean, or glaciers.
@Dennis, I agree with Daisy that much of the land is not compatible with human life – steep mountains, bone-dry deserts, bodies of water, temperatures too high or too freezing for people to tolerate during at least some parts of the year.
It’s not just the climate and terrain, though – it’s food and water. Yes, food can be trucked in as it is in all population centers. But, you need water to sustain life and lots of places either don’t have it, or don’t have enough to support very many people. And that’s in everyday life, not even talking about a SHTF scenario.
@ So Cal Gal
HEY!!!!!!! I live in the Desert (High Desert), I LOVE it here; ya don’t have all that NASTY rain getting everything soggy wet all the time HAHAHAHA
NRP
@NRP, ha, ha… at least you don’t have Ken’s mud problems!
DaisyK, So Cal Gal, My first reaction to your responses was that you disagreed with my post. After re-reading several times, it appears you are agreeing with my premise, although maybe not intentionally.
I did not say that all available space is equal for sustaining the human race. My point was that we as human beings have systematically usurped much of the land that is suitable for producing food and water to build our homes on and carry our waste away from those homes. Land that was once used for raising crops tends to be much easier and cheaper to build tract home residential neighborhoods on than rougher ground where growing crops is much harder and less productive.
You are right, productive cropland and potable water sources are limited. Like it or not, without GMO and hybrid seeds and fertilizers made from petroleum by-products, the U.S. would likely not be able to feed its own population much less export and give away so much food and fiber.
Having said that, lest you think I’m a filthy capitalist shill or a tree hugger, I’m neither. Actually, though I worked for 34 years in a top ten population center, I’ve never lived inside the city limits of a town, always grew a goodly portion of my family’s meat and veggies on our rural properties, hunted fished and spent weeks at a time in the wilderness. When I retired I moved to a remote mountaintop 45 acres with a spring, tons of wildlife and tillable ground (long depleted of nutrients due to poor stewardship by the original owners). Going without electricity for periods of well over a week at a time is commonplace. I have “space” but I’m also a realist. I am not, nor will I ever be, totally self sufficient. I applaud those who have accumulated years of provisions, have armed (and hopefully trained) themselves for as many scenarios as possible, but please, please don’t ever start believing you have all the answers. Life for me means going to the store (28 miles and 45 minutes minimum) is measured in weeks not hours or days. I truly believe that many preppers are naive as to what life will be like after SHTF.
Hope I’ve offended no one. Not my intent. Keep your ideas coming.
@Dennis, no offense here… and I do agree with points you made… especially that our ever-growing population is taking over what once was agricultural land in many areas. It’s happened all over Southern California, and it’s been going on for many years. Areas that were once orange tree groves, strawberry fields, etc… are now filled with tract homes.
So, there are more people, and fewer local food sources. Yet, many of my fellow suburbanites don’t see the problem. I think it comes from too many years of having everything available at the local grocery store 24/7/365. Too many people take way too much for granted when it comes to food and water, and I do not intend to be one of the fools who is shocked when something happens and the shelves are bare and the tap stops running. Hopefully we will be living in a better environment if things go really wrong.
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to sound so rude. It was just a quick observation made without thinking.
As I have said here before, there are only 2.5 people per square mile in NW Wyoming. Just over a half million in the state. Most of it is so arid, that nothing will grow except hay and grass for the cattle. It takes many acres for one cow. Wyoming can’t get much bigger in population because there isn’t enough water. Most of the water in our rivers belongs to the states down stream. We have a few streams but you can guess the quality and amount of the water by the names of the creeks. Bitter Creek, Alkali Creek, Dry Creek, Salt Creek, Nowater Creek, Alum Creek, Geyser Creek…
You are right with better management and technology, we could fit more people on the planet. But the population is increasing faster than the technology and/or the will of the people to change their lifestyle. We waste a lot of our resources. Everyone grows grass in their standard sized yard instead of vegetables. We have acres and acres of concrete suitable for driving and parking cars. We waste water on water parks, fountains, and swimming pools. We throw away half the food we buy, and waste even more than half of the food we give to the poor because they want only food that takes no preparation. We grow corn to turn into ethanol for our cars.
No, I didn’t think you were a tree hugger. And you made many good points that I glossed over with my quick answer.
I lived in towns all my life. Same state. I thought that was the way to be. Something always going on. My DH lived in the same house in the country with 2 acres. When we married we moved a bit around the town and he wasn’t happy. Finally with 2 little kids not used to a yard we moved down the road from his parents with 21/2 acres. The first day he had to go away for 4 days. I told him he couldn’t because there was no street lights, no noises, and things that crawl with eyes.i had never been around deer or raccoons. Well the girls’ s and I survived and I wouldn’t have it any other way. I have lots of space and love the peace and quiet. My DH can stretch out and have any project he wants in his yard.
sorry i am spoiler
I lived in India before i moved here. seven times less area and seven times more population.
i have no regrets living there. May be its religion, diversity and people themselves were more into living with each other.
Take time and visit a country in south asia. Its not crowd that matters its people and their hearts which matter.
don’t they still have problems with the caste system?
India-SE Asia.
No sanitation. The street is the toilet. When you fly to India and the plane gets to within a 100 miles of the place the stench starts.
On the ground the smell is horrid and the flies are on everything.
A 5 star restaurant can’t be trusted not to make you sick.
Sex slavery is common. (India holds the #1 spot)
Gang rape is common.
Anyone want that here?
I also think there is a world of difference between the people and lifestyles in rural communities and cities, with the suburbs (where I have lived my entire life) only one step above city living.
I have never aspired to live in a McMansion, or a highrise building, or in a downtown (name the city) over-priced cracker box of an apartment so I could be close to the action of the big city. I have never been a fan of big cities – they are crowded, noisy, expensive, polluted and to me mostly unsafe. That holds no appeal for me. Absolutely worst place to be in an emergency to my way of thinking.
On the whole (always exceptions), I have found it difficult to get to know people in tightly packed neighborhoods. Over the years we have had some nice neighbors, and made a few friends, but people in cities do not usually band together and form tightly-knit communities. We have several friends in rural communities who talk of neighbors helping each other with big projects, sharing produce when someone’s garden is in abundance, or knowing when someone in the community is hurt or sick and needs help.
If SHTF before we can move out of suburbia we are pretty much screwed. We will have to bug in because it is too many miles on crowded roads to bug out to friends who have told us to come to them in an emergency. I have no illusions that we could march out into the wilderness and survive, nor would I expect someone living in a rural community to take us in – I wouldn’t do it in their shoes.
If things hold together a while longer we will be living in a much smaller community in a more rural environment. We will be better placed and equipped to survive. More than that, I want to be part of a small community that can work together in a worst case scenario. I realize as newcomers we would have to earn the trust and friendship of long-time residents, and am more than willing to do my part to be a good neighbor and a person worth trusting.
I grew up, married and raised my kids in a big city, At the time it felt normal to have the hustle and bustle around us. Fast forward past the divorce and my remarriage, suddenly it felt overcrowded. Sold the condo and moved to the country; best move ever!
Its quiet with only the sound of farm animals and the occasional vehicle going by. People are nice and friendly. Even in the local town of about 18,000, most people are friendly.
In about 8 weeks the population will explode due to the cidiots coming up for the summer. Can’t find a nastier, more self-centered bunch if I tried. They push and shove when shopping in the grocery stores. Tail-gate and flip you the bird if you’re not driving fast enough or if you don’t get out of their way. After all, they’re city folk and so very much better/smarter than the country dimwits that live in the area. Sometimes it feels like the end of the world has already happened. Once October is over, we go back to our normal way of life.
Darn, just bummed myself out!
kk
@ kawartha kween
Yeah, and could you just imagine if TSHTF and all those cidiots decided that you OWE them a place to live and you HAVE to share all of your preps?????
Just though I would try to cheer you up some 🙂
NRP
Thanks NRP, really needed that thought.
That’ll be when my crazy self comes out to stay. Coming from a long line of Balkan crazies helps. Anyway, have already thought about that scenario and what we’d need to do to prevent it.
kk
@kawartha kween
Hey, I’m just like the Government….. “I’m here to help” ……. HAHAHA dang near snorted tea out my nose on that one… ROFLMAO God that hurt.
NRP-da-partially-crazy
@ NRP
If you’re half crazy, you can come and stay with us if TSHTF. You’d fit right in and I got some Irish tea that is out of this world delicious. We could drink that and watch everything fall apart. Blue would have fun with our labs.
kk
NRP needs ajvar too 🙂
@ kawartha kween
Thanks for the offer, I’ll tape a roll of TP to the barrel of my AR10 when I show up, that way you’ll know it me… HAHAHAHA
I may be a little over qualified on the “crazy” thing tho….. Even Blue looks me sideways at times…
NRP
We Balkanites are some hardy folks though lol
@ Anonymous
You’re right about that!! Great-grandmother lived to 107. Died of complications of the flu, refused to see a doctor. Didn’t trust them.
Anyway, got the ajvar for NRP and some kimchi fermenting away.
kk
@kawartha kween
Ajvar, Kimchi, and Kombatch NOW were talking.
Toss in a little homemade Kraut and ˈbʁaːtvʊɐ̯st with that and we’re having a party… LOLOL
Talk abo a way to get some “elbow room” HAHAHA
NRP
Living crowded is YOUR way of life. We do not want it. More people flood into this country every day. They steal our jobs. Our children are being taught to conform to foreign ideas. The flood of people is reducing wages and destroying the middle class. We want our way of life, not yours.
It is much easier to become a prisoner to the grid, the factory farms, the plastic crap, the fast food, the visual pablum ….. than it is to work the old homestead. There was a reason people had many children and kept the whole family together.
Some of us have gone back but the majority will never and could not survive that lifestyle. They will kill you for what you have rather than work for it. Sorry for the way I see it.
One point I should make proving how stupid our society has become is – in our area many orchards have been removed to allow large house (McMansions) on 3 to 4 acre parcels. The balance of the land has been put into lawns which are fertilized and mowed on a regular basis. Am I the one that is crazy?
Those farmers got rich for making a killing selling their farmland to the developers. I see great expanses of condo/apartments on 35E heading near the Twin cities that used to be prime farmlands. They all are alike and are the same white color. To me that represents communism. Same look, same color, same lawns, same bushes, the views are like a mirror of their same looking apts, and every one conforms to their strict governance of laws and people who live there can’t express individuality. It looks more like Agenda 21 than anything else.
Home in the beginning was a small city, 8,000 population with a county population of less than 100,000(1960-80). We had orchards, cattle ranches, they only thing we grew was a garden an dad shared the vegetables with everyone.
During the time I was growing up and getting married, the “outlanders” moved into the area. The mind set of these people changed what once was a great place to live. We have lost the majority of our orchards, cattle ranches, we now have traffic, rude drivers, houses that look like they are cookie cutters from the Bay area or L.A. and transferred to where we reside.
This once beautiful valley is butt ugly, no other way to phrase it. Thankful we live outside of the disaster zone but they are getting closer every day.
Would love to move but not applicable at this time in our life. I want 100 acres so they can not get close to us an dh wants 1 acre…..we live on 12+ acres now.
Yes, I need lots of elbow room.
“Leprosy” Lost a finger few years ago. Now when I’m at a till some clerk’ s will drop my change from about 6″ rather than touch my hand. I just smile and tell them ” don’t worry, the doc say’s the leprosy has burnt itself out and I’m probably not contagious anymore.”Cidiots” Thanks to kk for the term, love it.?
Lots of elbow room here. You can drive for hours and hardly see any houses. We are on a acre in our sub division and are thinking of moving for more elbow room. Lol We want more acreage and a little more privacy.
Big cities suck . We lived in a county with 200,000 population and saw an increase in crime , especially home invasions and drug related crime , as well as gang issues .
We are retired and began planning about 8 years ago to find a safer, more comfortable place to live. It can be done with discipline and lots of planning .
We now live 7 miles from the nearest town of 2500 on 4 acres , the next largest town is 40 miles away with 28,000 population ,what a pleasant change . Friendliness is the first thing we noticed on our move , people actually say things like “good morning” and ” how are you doing ” and they mean it .
I truly believe that ” elbow room ” is needed , we all need a little breathing space between us and our neighbors . Life certainly is not without it’s problems , but a little elbow room helps calm the waters .
I am almost afraid posting my opinion…there are too many people on the planet especially in underdeveloped countries but also in industrialized ones. I love my children, but do you really need a half a dozen kids when you are way below the poverty level and live kn a quarter a day if. We are no longer strictly an agrarian society where we need all hands on the farm. Sadly, in those countries, birth control is not taken seriously even when education on how to use it is provided. With that being said, yes procreation is needed and required for our species to survive, but not when it comes to those poor little souls being brought into their world of utter uncertainty if they will live another day.
There are lots of things that contribute to this. One is that in many of these places “honor” is still determined by virility–for men AND women. Also, many of these places still are primarily agrarian, with all that entails, and the additional problem that the decimating pressure of constant tribal wars, starvation and disease has been eliminated or reduced. A few generations ago a family that only had a few children wouldn’t survive, and those attitudes are not going to change quickly. A family might THINK they only want one or two children, but under the sneers and whispers of their neighbors and family they cave to social pressure. Just as people in our culture cave to social pressure when they have only two–or none–when they want more. Even now, many of those areas have the highest infant/child mortality, the highest deaths in childbirth, etc.
You stated the problem itself when you said these children don’t know if they will live another day. They live every day with the thought that they might die tomorrow. They’ve seen siblings, cousins, parents die, and they live every day with the thought that they might be the only child of their parents to survive to adulthood. Until the problems of disease, poverty, infant and mother mortality are addressed, any attempt at population control in these areas is likely to backfire badly, quickly reducing the population to unsustainable levels.
@Texas, it’s not just underdeveloped areas. It is here in the US. If you are on welfare already, why continue to have more children if you cannot support the ones you have. I hate to say implanted,forced birth control as I have heard others say. But what do you do? I see these women using children as currency. It’s disgusting.
Agenda21 at works….
One of the saddest things I ever heard was a six year old who told me that her Mommy needed more money so she was going to have a baby brother.
Even sadder, that six year old is now eighteen and just had one of her own to continue the cycle. They’re selling their children, they just keep possession so they can sell them again.
We are losing our rurals at an alarming rate. Where I grew up in the 1970’s, I considered it paradise. Palm lined dirt roaded citrus groves near a small city of less than 20,000 total. Quiet, peaceful and I could roam the fields and fish the irrigation canals with little problem.
Fast forward to now – citrus virtually gone due to hard freezes and land owners deciding selling for tract housing. City is now 140,000 and boasts multiple Wal-Mart – Targets and numerous restaurants. Finding a lot to build on costs as much as a house ($80,000 for the lot alone, no utilities) is difficult to find near town. All outdoor recreation is very limited now unless you find only paved surfaces suitable.
I stayed down here for my kids to grow up like I did. Impossible – its all gone. Too many people.
J.R., it sounds like we grew up together. I lived on one of those citrus farms and loved it. I’m now a few states away, and it’s rare that I get back to the Valley. Whenever I do, I’m always shocked by the changes.
Can’t believe at all the “subdivisions” going up. Houses right next to each other. I mean like 2 feet, cookie cutters. I dread the day when you can’t drive for miles and see nothing. They are just going to keep packing them in. When a Walmart goes up, you can guarantee a mini city popping up around it. We just saw a place where there was literally nothing, Walmart was built. Then boom. Houses and businesses all over.
For now, enjoying the camping and quietness, while we can.
I just drove past end of line for the rails in this area. Four and five story apartments going up as fast as they can work within an easy two minute walk, most of them standing empty even while others are under construction. The buildings themselves are close together and as far as I can see there’s no parking facility even for residents. Those who live there would have to rely on public transportation. Most only have a pseudo-balcony less than two feet wide, presumably as a barrier in case someone decides to walk out a 5th story door.
I cannot imagine living that way. I live suburban and most of my imagining revolves around tearing down all the houses so I have some room to stretch!