How Many Times A Firearm Is Used For Effective Self Defense

The following is a combination of my thoughts as well as information sourced from an article I read from CocealedCarry magazine, published by

We never hear about the times (any time) a firearm is used for effective defense. Rather, mainstream media will “cherry pick”, propagandize and leverage an occurrence whenever it will fit their anti-gun agenda.

Year after year, people use firearms to successfully defend themselves.

These incidents may be at home, at work, or simply out running errands.

While the exact number of instances is difficult to pin down (many times a police report is never filed), legitimate researchers estimate the number to be between one million and two million times a year.

It is unfortunate that a mostly anti-gun media clouds the general public’s perceptions regarding this topic.

For one thing, they rely on “statistics” that count a “defensive gun use” as only those cases where the attacker is actually killed.

This ignores the vast majority of cases (apparently at least 92% according to USCCA research) where an individual uses a firearm defensively without any shots fired.

Even when shots are fired, only a fraction of those incidents result in the death of an attacker.

Focusing only on lethal encounters completely misses the point (on purpose). If you were to use your gun to scare off a would-be mugger or rapist, you’d likely be relieved that you succesfully protected yourself without having to actually shoot someone.

Most “no-shots-fired” incidents never make even the local press. When nobody is shot, it apparently just isn’t worthy of coverage.

The one exception is if the lawfully armed citizen has acted in a manner that could lead to criminal charges. Then it will become a story, since it conforms to the media narrative that even responsible people cannot be trusted to carry firearms.

Yet, Americans who lawfully carry firearms are amazingly responsible citizens. In fact, the average ciizen is eight times more likely to commit an act of violence than someone who legally carries.

Note: I am a member of the USCCA and several other similar organizations in support of the 2nd Amendment. Lets face it, our money is needed to battle against those who would snatch away our rights if they could.

Related: Transporting Firearms Across State Lines
Related: Firearm Safety For Home Security


  1. I remember an incident where a police officer was struggling on the ground by the road with a subject that was attempting to get the officers gun. A citizen got out of his car and ran to the officer and asked if he needed help. The officer indicated that he did need help. The man ran back to his car to grab his gun and shoot the subject. If I am reading my state laws correct, I can carry in my car but I can’t carry concealed or open carry. I don’t remember what State this happened in at the time, but it just seems ludicrous that the man had to run back to his car to get his weapon.

    1. It was Naples FL on I-75 in 2016… Just down the road from me.
      Legal shoot under stand your ground laws, because the dead scum sucker perp was committing a felony assault / attempted murder on a citizen (in this case a uniformed police officer).
      Pretty crazy incident.

    2. Peanut Gallery,

      As a contrast to states with strong anti-gun sentiments, I’ll relate an incident in west Texas, back in the late ’70’s as I recall, before even Texas, had concealed carry.

      A mule deer hunter travelling home from a hunt, on a desolate stretch of highway, passed a highway patrol car and the violator he had stopped. The highway patrolman was on his back, the violator was standing over him shooting the officer. The hunter stopped his vehicle some 200 yards past the scene, retrieved his hunting rifle from the bed of his pick-up, then calmly dropped the perpetrator with a single shot from his .270 Winchester as he stood over the now deceased officer. The hunter drove back to the scene, confirmed the murderer was dead, then used the officer’s radio to report the incident.

      In the aftermath, the media demanded the hunter’s name, claiming the murderer posed no threat to him and that it was criminal for him to shoot suspect from such a distance. The state police refused to identify the hunter, fearing intimidation by the press and other liberal types, and stated the hunter had no way of knowing the trooper was already dead, thus was justified in taking the man’s life.

      The press attempted to force the release of the hunter’s name by filing a lawsuit in court. The court rejected their suit. Later, in true Texas style, the Texas Department of Public Safety awarded the hunter with a fully engraved “Texas Ranger Commemorative 1911 Colt Pistol” for his actions in a private ceremony. The DPS purposely made the award public in a press release. The media was livid. To this day, no one knows the name of that good Samaritan.

    3. This is a poor example of defending yourself or others. Cops often enforce laws which violate fundamental freedoms and commonly instigate situations and commit abuses including murder. If you give the cop the benefit of the doubt you are really giving the big government and police state the benefit of the doubt. I wouldn’t get involved.

      1. This is a poor example of defending yourself or others. Dopers and other lowlifes often commit crimes which violate fundamental freedoms and often instigate situations and commit abuses including murder. If you give the lowlife or doper the benefit of the doubt you are really giving anarchy and lawlessness the benefit of the doubt. I will always get involved.

      2. Jack, hahahahaha, that’s actually funny, lots of people just don’t have the “spine” to help in a life or death situation. Normal M.O. for people with no spine is to scream like a little girl at the mere hint of trouble and beg somebody, anybody to help me and call the cops. The same kind of people run from a building on fire and push the elderly and children out of the way so they can run unfettered. hahahaha

  2. Peanut G.
    This event may have happened in Texas. In Texas if you are not licsened to carry a firearm you can only legally posses a firearm in your car or your home. Just remember if you are in Texas and you are in possession of a firearm( and not LTC) and if you are caught with a pistol you must say you are walking to your car. Just try not to park your car more than a few miles from your home, otherwise the judge may not believe you. In Texas you can not legally posses a firearm in your boat or personally owned aircraft unless you are licsened to carry. Also, please remember that even if you are licsened to carry that you may not in some cases carry in a hotel, rental property or Bed & Breakfast. Don’t you just love the anti-gun lobby!

    1. Thanks Texas Boy, some of these laws make little sense. I think they are written this way to trip more people into breaking the law so the government has a reason to take a citizens gun.

      1. Written by lawyers, for lawyers, to perpetuate the revenue stream for lawyers. Lawyers are to blame for a lot of our social ills because of their propensity to grub money from any source they can take advantage of.

    2. In PA, you can open carry without a license, however, that does not include inside a vehicle. If you have a loaded gun in a vehicle it is considered to be concealed carry. To transport a weapon, the weapon must be unloaded and the ammunition separated from the weapon, unless you have a concealed carry permit.

      A young man in a town near here was exorcising his open carry rights during a town counsel meeting (probably not a smart way to exorcise ones 2nd amendment rights), when he left, the police followed him. And the moment that he sat down in his vehicle, they arrested him for caring concealed without a license.

    3. In Mississippi, we have Constitutional Carry. Open and concealed carry are allowed under the law without a permit (according to what I’ve been told). We also have a Castle Doctrine that covers one’s home (inside and outside), one’s property (fields, yards, etc.), vehicle, and any place in public where you have a reasonable right to be.

    4. Texas treats boats like cars for firearm purposes (same rules) so with LTC you can open or concealed carry but no LTC means glovebox carry. The real problem is many (most?) major lakes in Texas are Corp of Engineers lakes and CoE rules (no guns) apply. The Lower Colorado River Authorty lakes have similar rules because they were given the right to regulate by statute back in 50’s or 60’s before the lakes were built.

      Hotel rooms are a domicile and you can posses and carry in your room, just not public areas if you are given proper notice.

    5. Texas Boy,

      You said “In Texas you can not legally posses a firearm in your boat or personally owned aircraft unless you are licensed to carry.”

      Source? I was Texas leo for 34 years. Even before concealed carry permits came about, all case law allowed carry at home or in your vehicle when away from home overnight. With advent of concealed carry laws, inside your vehicle, whether a car, boat, or airplane was consider your abode while away form home. This included the confines of any shelter rented or leased, including your hotel/motel room. The only exceptions were Corp of Engineers lakes and Federal Parks.

      Is this the law now? Is that being taught in CC classes?

      1. – Dennis –

        Probably not the right venue to discuss, but understand that under Texas’ current Castle doctrine, vehicle (whatever sort) is included. The requirement to qualify as a traveler, etc., while still in existence, is pretty much covered by ability to have firearms in your vehicle legally without LTC. Removes lots of discussion about how many county lines, hours, and so forth.

        – Papa S.

  3. At one time (I don’t know if it is still the case) the FBI counted “gun crimes” as ANY time a gun was used. So if you used your gun in self defense and had to actually fire it, chock up one more gun crime. This skewed the numbers enormously toward the side of gun control.

  4. The personnel who are armed should ideally be the teachers, not a hired or part time security guard. They need to BE THERE, on site, not a block away handling a kid who doesn’t want to do his addition and throws a fit. Many schools have on-site security, but security can be only in one place at a time. The Florida night-club shooting also had security on site, as did Columbine and nearly every other mass shooting in recent history. The majority also took place at gun-free zones, i.e., target rich shooting galleries.

    Another thing the press chooses not to cover is the number of times when a mass shooting was STOPPED before it became a tragedy because someone on site (close by) had a gun. A teacher, a janitor, a security guard, whatever. Not only in schools, either. When a shooter is killed or otherwise incapacitated before the dead reach the magic number of four (which is the asinine limit set by federal law enforcement to define a “mass shooting”) it’s not newsworthy.

    1. Hey Lauren,

      I agree with you about the media. They push their own agenda which is usually anti-gun. They actually create mass shooters often too because the way they cover them and give the shooter a lot of television time.

      Schools is a tough one though. I personally don’t think arming teachers is the answer. As someone with kids in grade school, the thought of a gun always in the school is scary. A teacher could easily be overpowered and the gun taken. It also only takes one mistake by the gun carrier for it to end up in the hands of a student. Kids are sneaky and sometimes make very dumb decisions. I would hate for a tragedy to happen because a student somehow took the gun away from the teacher. And even if this was a solution, the vast majority of teachers do not want to be armed.

      What likely needs to happen is a cultural shift. In Japan, crime rate and specifically homicide are very low and mass shootings are basically non existent. I believe this is mostly because of their cultural values. Change does not need to come in the form of gun control.

      1. None of the laws being considered would require a teacher to be armed. And requiring a teacher who is not comfortable with fire arms to be armed would be a mistake.

        That being said, if teachers are allowed to carry concealed, the potential perp will never know if someone will pull out a gun and end his day.

      2. There are areas where this has been allowed for years, and as far as I know there’s never been an incident. The teachers carry CONCEALED, and letting a child see or know that they carry is enough to get a teacher suspended. Other areas require that the gun be in a lock-box.

        Saying we need to shift our culture to that of Japan is a self-defeating argument unless you’re willing to take about 80 generations to make the shift.

        1. I did not say we need to shift our culture to that of Japan. They were merely an example of a culture who places a high value on human life. And the results were obviously positive as Japan one of the lowest crime rates amongst any country.

          And the shift is happening in younger generations. We realize how valuable life and individual rights are. The right labels it as the younger generations overwhelming lean left. The truth is we don’t really care if people are gay, transgender, or whatever as long as you show respect for everyone. Call it leaning left but I call it respect for human life and basic human rights. Someone being gay in no way affects me or my family, so I let them live how they want to.

          The cultural shift in Japan only took 2-3 generations. I believe it could happen in the next few generations. If we can learn to respect each other, even those with differing opinions, I believe we would see a decline in crime.

        2. WHTC- I see your point, but I am not sure Japan is a good example when discussing values- I always think about Nanking when there is talk about Japans cultural superiority…

          “Different lanes for different brains…”

  5. The problem is the general public does not understand how lots of Law Enforcement agencies count crimes. In my department we have a category called “Firearms Related”. This would include any call we take which involves a firearm in any situation. Kids shooting off airsoft gun at rabbits, person legally open carrying who we get a complaint against, self defensive shooting or using it to scare away an intruder in your home, firearms stolen, or of course criminal shootings or armed crimes involving firearms.

    So if we have a juvenile firing off an airsoft gun, drinking and we get a 911 call. We record one 911 call, one Call for service, one firearms related, one juvenile related, one arrest, and one minor in consumption. EVEN if we take him home to his parents, we count all of these crimes/actions once for the same incident. I know nearby surrounding agencies count their statistics this way as well. I am sure others do not, but if we are doing it in this area of the Country, then others must be too. Determining how the statistics are collected is vital before relying on them.

  6. The subject about the self defensive use of firearms by the citizenry and the small amount of coverage it receives in the so called “free press” should prove beyond any doubt that the press is controlled , not free .

  7. I once worked in a casino as a card dealer and worked as a security officer for a security company. Working at those places showed me the desperation of people (to lie and cheat to make a buck) and the willingness for people to steal (I once cought a person stealing two 25 cent packs of Ramen noodles). This desperation and carelessness for the law caused me to renew my carry license. Because I do not want to get caught in a situation with little or no protection if ever encountering one of those desperate criminals on the streets. I don’t walk the streets looking for any trouble, just one of those things it is better to have and not need than need and not have. I don’t carry much anyways except for when I am away from the house to go shopping (which is usually just once a week). For work, I just keep a weapon in my backpack which is always close by.
    Just my 2 pennies.

  8. Here is something everyone will want to know if you have not heard it already which would be slim to none. On the subject of guns but note worth since it is a piece of news left out of the publics view.

    Three years ago a young man Cody Wilson who’s business designed a working 3D gun. He then uploaded the instructions on the internet for all to have this knowledge. The State Department took down his instructions and sighted the following, under the DTCC/END=Office of Defense Trade Compliance with civil enforcement directive/Arms Export Control Act (22U.S.C. 2778) (AECA) /International Traffic Arms (22C.F.R. parts 120-130) (ITPC)/USML (22 C.F.R. part 121).

    This law suit has been in the courts for 3 years, and the .gov finally gave into Mr. Wilson arguments which fell under the following 1) Right to free speech 2) Right to bare arms.

    Another big win was any fire arm below a 50 caliber, not a full automatic is now considered a NON MILITARY WEAPON according to this ruling. The law suit was settled on 7-10-2018, an was on Glenn Beck’s tv show the following day 7-11-2018. It appears there may have been a short blurb on Fox news, which I did not see nor hear.

    Like the stories of protecting ones family, it is of NO interest to the NON free fake media unless there is blood running on and down the streets. jmho

      1. Anonymous
        Thank you, it is good to know someone beside ACDH & I caught this vital piece of history which saves our rights once again.

        Forget to mention the AR was the weapon that is no longer considered a military weapon.

        1. Antique Collector:
          Tom Grishun on Gun Talk had him on last Sunday, guite a remarkable story.
          If you can go to Gun Talk dot com. And give it a listen.

        2. NRP
          Thanks for the information.
          Jeannie is out of the bottle now, with new technology.
          Did you hear what the 9th circus did about Hawaii’s gun law??
          Found out the law banning 30 round mag in CA is kaput now, believe it was the 9th circus again. Someone must be feeding them ‘Geritol’, in the afternoon tea with sparklies. lol

        3. Antique Collector,

          Don’t want to rain on anybody’s parade, but the motives of a dog that always attacks you suddenly wanting to lick your hand must be questioned.

          All these cases normally end up at the Supreme Court because they usually have deep pocket states vs. deep pocket 2nd amendment support groups. The appointment of Gorsuch and the possibility of Kavanaugh being confirmed almost ensures that many draconian gun laws will be overturned and the rulings becoming the law of the land preventing similar attempts to infringe on individual rights. This series of “set backs” to gun control folks could be designed to slow the process of these legal battles reaching that body, giving time for Schumer , et al, to successfully force Trump or to appoint a more “moderate” candidate to the court.

  9. Can anyone provide a link to the full study/report? Is it available online?

    1. restorinBrad,

      I’ll try this. The report is 110 pages long.

      three double u’s dot nap dot edu forward slash read forward slash 18319 forward slash chapter 1

      You can then scroll through the pages

    2. restoringbrad;
      Try this.. Just do a Google search on the following.

      Google will bring you right to the page.

  10. Dennis agreed. I believe a major dilemma is no matter what gun regulation you put in place, criminals will always be able to get ahold of guns. If you regulate guns too much, you are really only hurting law abiding citizens.

  11. Don’t know about other folks but for myself I have seen it work real good. Had some clown following me up Hwy 441 one day about four years ago. Took a side road into a subdivision with no houses and a turn around dead end. Was waiting with a Mossberg 500 tactical 12ga. over the hood of my pickup. When the all black, no plates Camero showed up he almost hit a tree backing away real quick. Call the Sheriff (personal friend) and filled him in on the fun. He put a all points out and the car was stopped in the next county. Deputy informed the occupants that they had come real close to hearing banjo music and getting to meet Jesus. They were told to go back to Virginia if they knew what was good for them.

  12. In California ERs all gun shot wounds are mandatory to be reported. BB, pellet, airsoft or bullet. It doesn’t specify the propellant. Remember Ralphy asking Santa for a Red Ryder and being told you’ll shoot your eye out? I’ve seen 3 kids shot in the eye with BBs. It does happen. All in all better a BB than a bullet. None of the kids lost their vision but they did require surgery.

    On the home front it appears we have a mountain lion in the area. I thought It might be a good plan to arm myself when I let the dog out for his last pee of the night. Grabbed the 12 gauge and pulled a few 00 bucks out of the sleeve on the stock. Loaded them into the magazine and racked it. First round went 85% in and stopped. It also wouldn’t extract. I could see a band of rust around rim that hadn’t chambered. I had to disassemble the gun to get it unloaded with a ram rod. Of the 5 rounds in the sleeve 2 of them were too rusty to chamber. Beware Winchester with black rims, They are painted steel. Technically I have to wait for the lion to kill my dog, Then I can get a depredation permit. Right.

    1. me THANKS for the warning about Black Rim Winchester would be ugly to pump one in and NO GO….

      I do not know about you friend but I happen to have a rather deep hole that I intend to fill back in for safety reasons pretty soon…..

      My Dogs were FAMILY. Looking at a Fest Puppy this weekend. Want to meet Sire and Dame as well as breeders in general. Great Ratters I hear, maybe Voles will pass onward.

      My Uncle used to say a free man does what is right and is Smart Enough not to involve the Government. He also used to say something about not getting under the feet of an rampaging elephant (

      1. Yep the dog is family. The grandkids know him as their Uncle. Actually we don’t own him. He owns us. Very giving dog though. Lets us drive his truck, sit on his couch, etc. Very giving.

        1. Me,
          I call Ol Jake “Son”, he’s the only one of my kids that really listens to me any more.

    2. Y’all might like John Lovell’s ( YouTube vid on cc insurance. His guest is an attorney who is very informative on the subject.

    3. Me,
      if you have a cat that is snooping around, not afraid of humans I can only give you one piece of advice. We call it the 3-S s around here: shoot, shovel, and shut-up. Its one thing to protect lions from being poached, but ones that have gotten used to humans is a danger that needs to be eliminated.(Ask any game warden off the record and they will agree.). Protect yourself first. just my 2 cents.

      1. Minerjim
        You gave the advise I was going to state the 3-S’s.

        After having lions use the herd of sheep inherited from my dad for training practice for their cubs the state finally gave in getting rid of them. Of course the lioness running over the top state employee while he was surveying with a lamb in its jaws helped a lot. Other wise it would have been Yah right.

        1. Gut shoot him, and let him run off into the woods and die. No bullet wound will show up.

          Don’t ask how I know.

  13. Here’s my beef
    Key word style
    Military style weapon…..
    The AR
    Military style vehicle….
    The Hummer
    Military style clothing…..
    The Camo fad
    Military style boots
    The ”Jungle boots”
    Military style food
    The MRE
    Military style stores
    The Military surplus
    All is good and all is sold to the general public. But there is just that one big evil of all this…….
    THE UGLY BLACK G U N, that LOOKS Military

    1. (But there is just that one big evil of all this…….
      THE UGLY BLACK G U N, that LOOKS Military)

      I sold my black gun years ago (an HK-93) and not have a lever action 357 Mag Marlin.

      It still puts out a lot of bullets and doesn’t generate the rage because it’s a gun John Wayne used, or at least it looks like it.

  14. Ken, could we do a survey to find out if night vision and thermo vision is getting common place?
    Maybe talk to some of the vendors here and see if they sell a lot to the general public?
    Not having that stuff in a S-Fan could be a major disadvantage!

    1. My wife and I have found the night vision goggles and thermal sights to be now a must have. Sold two golden clay shotguns and a fancy rifle and turned the funds into night op gear. Have the PVS-7 PT3R goggles and the FLIR PTS-233 thermal sights on a AR-10 and AR-15. Better to have gear to survive than a bunch of gun safe queens just gathering dust. Best place to buy from is Ready Made Resources as service, price and warranty are outstanding. Had another brand of goggles but after three warranty returns they went away. Have hunted pig and coyote with this set up and it has worked great. If you don’t have night over watch capacity you could be in a world of hurt in SHTF.

      1. My night vision is from ReadyMadeResources. Bob will set you up with whatever you need. Tell him you heard it from Modern Survival Blog. Thanks.

  15. Not having a weapon, at the ready? For effective defense?

    Well, it’s like having a condom, Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.!!!!

    Never leave home without either.!!!!

    1. Sorry American Express
      It’s the .45, .40, or 9 I don’t leave home without.

  16. I use firearms for defense every day.

    Just as I use auto ins to protect me every day.

    Just owning a gun and having it on you for instant use is using it in my opinion.

    No I did not shoot anyone today, no I did not point it at anyone today to get them to stop what they were doing, but I did use it today…

    1. Confidence factor alone can prevent a confrontation. If you act confident most bad guys will leave you alone. They look for meek or scared people – most of the time.

  17. Ya know what’s sad?
    Thinking of the court repercussions of using your fire a r m.
    I had to serve a person court papers. Called this person, will meet at your house at this time on this day.
    Well he and the family weren’t home on that set time and date, but the pitbull boxer mix was….free.roaming .That damn dog got my hand and I thought if he comes at me again….pop.
    But what liabilities would I be held to?
    I then called the sob and asked .if his dog.was updated.on all his shots. And had taken pictures of my hand. Nothing serious, but none the less.
    GF, being ex animal control, said what if that had been a child that approached the door selling cookies???

  18. Just remember that actually shooting a person/criminal and going to criminal and civil court afterwards is a life changing experience that can and probably will result in:

    1. Your children being bullied in school.
    2. Your spouse being harassed at work.
    3. You having to relocate to a new town or city and working at a different job.

    If it is not a justified shoot, you end up going to prison or a mental hospital. I have the following hints for those who carry:

    1. Use factory ammo in a plain Jane unmodified gun for your EDC.
    2. Avoid use of decals and other “humorous” accessories. ( i.e.. “Wait for the flash” or “You’re F#cked!” on your weapon stock.). The jury will not be amused.
    3. The best weapon, holster and training in the world will not help you if you continue to make bad decisions like drinking alcohol while out with a weapon, hanging out at key locations like Strip Clubs off duty. ( crimes tend to happen around these types of locations with greater frequency than other locations. Check the local crime stats in your home town.)

    There is life after a justified police shooting. I was involved several times within California of all places. My saving graces that kept me out of prison after the investigations:

    1. My blood alcohol level was 0.0. I was stone cold sober.
    2. I was on the clock and in uniform doing my job when the exchange of fire took place.
    3. I still had to leave the profession and find employment in another field. My career as an LEO was a bit longer than the average military enlistment.

    Practice is good butt you are still vulnerable and mistakes can be made. You cannot un-fire a shot.

  19. To WhathappenedtoCompromise?

    Comparing the United States to Japan is trying to compare apples with oranges. Guns have never been a central cultural feature within Japan. ( unlike the US where rockets and bombs are part of our National Anthem)

    In Japan, a central cultural icon is the sword. That combined with a sense of honor, duty and vengeance for betrayal and injustice has led to many white collar criminals being killed by relatives of victims with big knives before they get a chance to see the inside of a court room. No body seems to keep stats on these type of activities.

    There is a lot of crime within Japan. It is just a different type than within the US. See recent news stories of the growing crime wave of old ladies who are committing petty crimes in order to be sent to prison to solve their retirement problems. Fraud is rampant. ( keeping a dead body in a shed out back so you can continue to collect govt checks.)

    These things are not talked about within Japanese society because they are “shameful”. And speaking of shame, the suicide rate within Japan is still pretty high when compared to other industrialized nations. Japan is not perfect either. My relatives tell me so.

  20. Retired deputy, now have enhanced carry permit , the only place I cannot carry is a judge’s courtroom , and I do carry everywhere else no matter if there are signs on private property or not, because by God I am not trusting anyone else to protect my family or me period. Be prepared and ready. Keep your powder dry.

  21. I had to terminate someone’s employment yesterday. I was warned it would be rough; it was. She tossed her desk and created a scene that I feared would get out of hand yesterday. She eventually left, but not before telling those around her how she has family, and this isn’t over. And she is from a culture where those words are never innocuous.

    My ‘other manager’ witness was quite shaken. I was too a little bit. I asked him if anyone in the building was armed, he said no. We both realize how vulnerable we are in that off-street location. Since in any likely confrontation, I would be the first one hit, it was decided that for the next week or two, I get to handle extended plant security.

    Well… time to go to work. Ugh.

    1. Another Cali I hear you buddy and sorry to say that scene is working through out America right now. You’re smart enough to listen to your gut. Did you check to see WHAT KEYS that person might have comprised for your physical plant? Locksmith time?

      Do you have shelter in place defense plans if a any family decides to GET you coming in or out of work? Area well lit and Uncluttered as to get some advance warning?

      Friends Guns are a wonderful tool but NOT the only tool you need. A Canister of SABRE Brand riot spray or Bear Spray is an effective way to drive off a crowd of angry people AND much easier to defend in Court.

      When Nailbanger asked us what about that group outside the wire demanding food or else a few months ago I said I have Bear Spray and a burial pit and hoping they rethink those threats AFTER they wash off that Bear Spray.

      Be careful friends as the situation gets more real even Non-Bosses can and will be targeted because they STILL have my job etc. Look around for areas you can be hand to hand really fast. Police Grade SABRE is really good stuff. I’ve trained with it.

      Joe c works well on Dogs too. I would still be mad if you sprayed my digs but less mad if you shot my dogs. Just a thought.

      1. NHM

        Just a little confused here, but I get what you’re saying. Thinking it wasn’t what you meant to type…
        I think u would rather not I shoot your dogs.
        “Joe c works well on Dogs too. I would still be mad if you sprayed my digs but less mad if you shot my dogs. Just a thought.”
        But anyway, I believe you are a responsible dog owner that would fence in, lock up, leash, have complete control of your dogs.
        I run our dogs outside in a fenced backyard when people I know come a knocking. Things will change when it comes to shtf., But we are not there…..yet.
        This person I spoke of knew I was coming and the dog was totally loose with no one home. Wasn’t my first ‘visit’. This person knew his intentions and if that dog caused more harm to me it would be dead. In doing so I could have saved the next person from being harmed. I should have reported it to animal control, but I didn’t, I think the fella saw thru the puddle of mud after I met with him.
        Spray would have worked yes…..but you have what you have.

        1. Joe c you are correct, it was not shoot my dog. Every bullet that is fired has a Lawyer chasing it.

          As far as responsible dog owner while I agree you KNOW your delivery was not exactly FedEx and they can tell the ANTI-Gun News Reporter that you unlawfully opened the gate blah, blah, blah and the Friendly Dog (Insert cute puppy licking a baby’s face here) was Murdered by evil ole you….

          If you invest in Bear Spray or a SABRE Police Grade Pepper Spray you can stop that dog while you retreat to your car or deliver those papers.

          But I speak not from direct knowledge of your Papers Delivery. I was civil when I was served that one time. I also have refused to cross picket lines even when offered a BIG Bonus to continue to work. I have enough scars already.

        2. NHM
          Forgot to add…..and hopefully makes ya laugh.
          I had spray
          Yeah it got confiscated at the entry gate of a Nickleback concert.
          I tell ya….I hate crowds…..

        3. Joe c I’m chuckling. Sabre Police grade pepper spray many models and prices at Amazon. Free shipping with 25.00 order and Sabre is very reasonable in price. I’d suggest the couple of packages that have a Training Spray included most less than 20.00 so you need to order something else like a can of SPAM eh?

          Good enough for Law Enforcement, Good enough for us civilians.

          Options Dude Options

        4. NHM
          Yeah that can of Spam is so damn close on my want list.
          Thanks for the info 👍

      2. NH Michael,

        I’m still alive… The way it went down it was supposed to be one that was let go, who was not any kind of a threat. I truly felt sorry for her; utterly incompetent, but very sweet. The ‘problem’ person was to go next, perhaps in a few weeks. We had a super incredible candidate show up out of the blue. Superiors decided to let go both at once. I literally had 40 minutes notice.

        I knew the second one was mercurial. I heard her with customers. Predictable and avoidable escalation every time. That’s a big reason why she had to go. There were other reasons too.

        Bear spray is a great idea, except maybe not at this location. We are west facing, all entrances and docks. Prevailing wind is almost always out of the west. Door opens on a hot afternoon and a potted plant 50 feet away can get knocked down. Anyone bent on causing trouble would be strongly upwind of me. and every other person in that office. There is no east facing outflow. Deployment of bear spray in that condition could be real bad, on a large scale.

        I don’t even want to think about it. My two new people are stellar so far. They are so good that it finally came into sharp focus for me, just how bad the other ones were. My boss told me I’m “too much of a nice guy” and I need to get over it. I think I’m starting to see his point.

        Anyway, with each day that passes, hopefully the threat-level goes down proportionately. To try and put my mind into that of someone bent on destruction, this place is a hell of a soft target. After all this blows over, I think I need to address it again with the owners.

        1. AC 2
          Yes definitely talk to.the uppers.
          The way I see it, any corporation that has in their policy that guns are not allowed……that corporate is then responsible for my and all’s safety. And family members will sure as he!! sue.
          I have been pissed of people in the work place and elsewhere but I have NEVER, EVER theatened to kill, maim or harm someone. ( Well, except the ex)
          Watch your 6. Could be nothing
          Be safe.

    2. Simple, just put up a “gun-free zone” sign; problem solved!
      Seriously, besides taking defensive measures, is intervention possible? Is there someone that could talk to her and ease into acceptance of what happened?

      1. Old Chevy if you had pre firing counseling and employee assistance for Social Services maybe anger could be reduced. However that is not the norm in business today and folks are even MORE stressed with Media driven Divide and Hate messages. So workplace violence is a real concern.

        1. I worked at a place where we had a scout that kept lookout after we had a similar situation. Added to the divide which you speak there are also heightened anxiety due to gambling debts, drugs, and the general breakdown of American society and families.

      2. That may have happened organically. At one point a number of other staff were outside talking with her. It took an uncomfortable amount of time, but eventually she left peacefully.

        1. Another Call===if this person does have violent /willing acquaintances, maybe they will avoid the “work area” where you all are “expecting” such….Might be looking to some more unexpected area/spot/etc.

        2. Anon,

          That’s always a possibility. It wouldn’t be too hard to cross my name to a residential address. There is only so much I can worry about and remain mentally sound. It’s a low probability, I think.

          But if they want to visit my one-way, dead end street, where I’ve got the high ground at the end with an array of high-rez cameras pointed down the approach from multiple angles, night vision, facial recognition, remote power backup, real-time cloud storage and armored covers. Plus my sweet, loving 80 pound, pure-muscle dog with an 8 inch rack of teeth and an over-the-horizon Radar between her ears….. Well, I say come on by! We love visitors.

        3. Another Cali—- I was thinking more of other situations… shopping/flat tire (easy to make a slow leak occur)/oddly timed car break down/stranded person-woman-child on side of road/etc….—I would just suggest that if you take extra care outside of home/work….etc..

    3. Wow. just wow. I have been laid off before with politics involved and almost fired once. It never even entered my mind to pitch a fit like that. It is indeed a changed and bizarre world.

      1. I was thinking of buying a new deer rifle when I was terminated by HR on a trumped up excuse when my workplace was trying to loose senior and higher paid employees. A couple of days later I was checking out a rifle in the local gun shop and a couple of the local paramedics walked in. The owners wife also used the shop to sell uniforms and they were looking at them. The director of HR was transferred out of town VERY shortly afterwards. I mean I feel insulted that they would think I would shoot someone over being fired but I have to admit feeling a bit of satisfaction thinking of her “discomfort”.

        P.S. I appealed the termination and won the appeal but by that time I decided to just stay retired.

        1. Another Cali I would carry a gun if the company said it was OK or not. I give no one the right to put my life in danger and not allow me to protect myself.

          Who cares if it’s against the rules or even the law. Your situation with these disgruntled employees has a potential for them to come back at some point and to start shooting people.

          Time from the firing may not be a good indicator of safety. What if it takes months or even a year of them looking for another job and not finding the right one? They could decide 18-months later that you are the cause of their problem and decide to use a gun to teach you the ultimate lesson.

          Years ago (back in the late 1980’s) I worked for a company as a carpet cleaner. This company tried to send me to a housing project to clean carpet. I worked alone on the carpet truck, no one worked with me. I was always the only one in a customers home. I saw on the board for upcoming jobs that address of the housing project. I brought in a Browning .380 and took it with me that day.

          I did not tell them till a few days later and they almost had a heart attack worrying about me shooting someone. I told them I didn’t shoot anyone and that I handled the situation safely as no one got shot. But that the first time someone tried to shoot me, I would shoot them. I made it clear that if I was sent into a bad area I would go armed and that their telling me to not carry a gun was going to stop me.

          They no longer sent me into bad areas of town but still sent me to area next to the bad areas.

          What I did was to trade the .380 for a Beretta 25-auto (much smaller) and to carry it every day in my pocket and not tell anyone.

          From that time on I decided I was in charge of my own life and that no company or law will change that.

          Since then I still carry a 25-auto but an unregistered one that a friend bought back in 1953. It’s a Browning 25-auto that for all practical purposes can’t be traced to anyone. The friend died 2-years ago (age was 96) and he gave me the gun just before he died. He actually gave me 4 guns as his daughter was / is very anti-gun and he knew she would have gave them to the police to be destroyed. One of them was a Colt Woodsman from 1955 that was un-fired and still in the box. It’s a nice gun that probably is worth a few thousand dollars. I will not be selling it. It’s a beautiful thing to look at.

          If I ever had to shoot anyone I think the gun (the unregistered ones) may go for a swim and I would walk away. The present anti-gun view that the government and media have make doing this a survival need.

          PS” The carpet cleaning thing above with the housing project was very dangerous as people in housing projects always paid in cash and everyone knew that any service person in the project had cash on him while he was packing up his truck. This just begs to have a gun pointed at you and to get shot.

          No one be it a company or a government has the right to put any of us into a situation of danger without us being able to protect ourselves.

          PPS: I know many here would say (and with a bit of being right) that a 25-auto is not much of a gun. And they would be right. But it’s better then no gun and it is very easy to have on you without anyone knowing it’s there. For your situation or my carpet situation it works when larger guns would be noticed. And I defy anyone to let me pump 5 or 6 25-auto bullets into them and to see if it changes their mind. No one is going to take me up.

          I almost always have a small gun on me and all of the ones I carry are not ones I have bought through a gun shop. I carry a larger gun also, but the 25-auto is for when it’s needed to look unarmed to avoid problems.

          I also bought a box of ammo to put in them that is different then the normal ammo I have at home so any spent casings won’t match up to my stock of ammo. And the cases are wiped down with alcohol to remove finger prints.

          It sounds criminal to do these things, but in today’s world I see it as a survival thing. It’s sad but today criminals bent on doing bad things have more rights then those of us that go to work every day for our whole lives. NOT IN MY MIND they don’t…

          In your situation I would put a small gun in a pocket as I did / do and tell no one.

        2. Hi Chuck.

          It’s funny… I spoke with two executives afterward about security concerns. Both are foreign nationals. The one guy was in the exit interview with me, he saw everything. I asked him directly if anyone in the company was armed. Answer was no.

          I offered, at least until things settle down. He leaned forward in a hushed whisper: “is it legal”? I spent the next few minutes explaining defense on private property concepts. He told me to do it. The other exec, thought it wasn’t necessary.

          I regularly carry a small backpack each day with gear that I use at work, but don’t want to leave there overnight. Maybe that bag is a bit heavier now, maybe its a big can of bear spray…. who knows? What I do know is I’m not laying down my life because some angry person with violent acquaintances decides to do, whatever.

          I don’t have anything pocketable, unfortunately. And the way California is, I’ll probably never buy another firearm.

          What I do legally own is generally referred to as a ‘hand cannon’. The thought of ever having to use it defensively is beyond horrifying. But there have been a couple times in the past 30+ years that I’ve been damned glad to have it.

          People are scary these days, more than before.

        3. Not familiar with things in California, but here in Ohio it’s pretty easy to buy a gun from a private person that has no paperwork associated with it.

          It’s done all the time and there is no criminal intent with it.

          My gun enthusiast friends all have guns and we trade them about. ( I do the same thing with Ham radios)

          At the local range or at the gun clubs we talk and are always looking for a new toy and are selling a current toy to pay for the new one.

          Is any of this going on in California? Can you join a gun club to shoot and therefore run across guns for sale? At almost every gun club meeting someone brings a gun to sell, they put it on a table with a price on it.

          For those that may think this is dangerous, it’s not as everyone at our gun club meetings already has dozens of guns and a new one is not going to make them go on a killing spree.

          I would say at least 1/2 of my guns (I have a few doz) are from fellow gun guys. And so far ( started buying them in the mid 1980’s) I have avoided the desire to go shoot people.

          It seems it would be hard to impossible for government to stop private trade. Not that they won’t pass laws on this, but to stop it is near impossible.

        4. Also here in Ohio it’s easy to buy a gun at a gun show that doesn’t involve the government. Again you find a gun you want and fork over the cash and walk out with a new gun. I would say about 1/2 of the gun sales at a gun show are done like this.

          The only government involvement I see at gun shows is the cops making sure all the guns have wire ties on them.

          PS” There is NO gun show loophole as criminals don’t go to gun shows to buy guns, they steel them from homes or buy them on the street.

          The gun show loophole is a democrat myth used to stop private people from trading guns that they can’t (and shouldn’t) track. It’s not about crime prevention, but rather about people control.

  22. Toronto, Canada has had increasing number of fatal/mass gun crimes. Yesterday the Toronto Mayor announced, he is working to banning all legal gun ownership. (now how would that work, please sir, drop your gun off as you cross the city boundry?)

    Very sad, as I am pretty near certain that these aforementioned Toronto Gun Crimes, have been committed with illegal weapons.

    Seems like Toronto may soon be truly “fish in the barrel” situation. —- Pretty certain the gangs/criminals/illegals will continue to arm themselves/carry on shooting.

    1. It is very ironic to me that this same mentality from governments all over the globe seem to desire to follow the same path all at the same time. I’m sure it is just my suspicious nature that makes me feel this way.

  23. Thinking about Southernman’s comment re need for night vision.
    Last year I bought a new Honda CRV with lots of bells and whistles. Including back-up camera. On the darkest night the image is just as clear as during the day. There’s a teeny camera that captures the image.
    Is that the same technology as night vision goggles? It would seem that an easily affordable Google-glasses type of night-sight technology should be available or just around the corner.
    Just wondering out loud.

    1. Continuing the thought – my $100 critter cam also has good night-sight resolution. So why are night vision goggles so spendy?

    2. For an off-grid budget night vision system around your house I would think these auto back up cameras (like the Honda CRV) would be good for those of us inclined for making up homemade things. I’m sure an auto junk yard near you has several of these cameras sitting there and being autos run on 12-volts they are ready-made for off-grid use if you have the ability to kit-bash a system.

      I’m going to be looking into doing this as I like playing with electronics and this is ready-made for a project that is not too complicated.

      PS” Don’t have the skills to do this? I’m sure someone local to you could do it. Look for an old style TV repair shop or CB repair shop or even an Amateur radio guy that can build just about anything. Every city has someone that can do this…

  24. Without a doubt open carry prevents a huge number of violent acts from occurring that are never known because seeing a firearm on someone provides a level of scicological concern to the agressor not to do a violent act!
    Unfortunately our society for the most part has a hard time accepting open carry until their lives are saved as a result of a good citizen defends them!

    1. Being Watched….I think you are correct…”open carry…..”…..etc…When folks KNOW not to mess with someone, because they can wipe them out, mostly the do not. I have heard it said many times, that even the very worst street addict (who will mostly steal from anyone) WILL NOT even steal from a vulnerable little old lady, if she is carrying the local gangs’ money/etc..

      1. A science fiction writer had a quote that made way too much sense.

        “An armed society is a polite society” – Robert Heinlein

  25. I just hope the old man that got knocked down by that miscreantin Florida ,Monday gets a good jury , because we all know that the DA will chicken out and call for a trial. Even though the old man did use the stand your ground law. As would I because I am older and disabled .

  26. The sad truth is if you ever find yourself standing in front of a court judge, you’ll realize that a thug criminal gets more respect from criminal courts than a good citizen gets. They don’t seem to care if a thug has a gun, but if a good citizen has one it’s the crime of the century.

    I’m not really sure what is behind this screwed up mindset???

  27. Friends anybody know of a level three handheld shield for a reasonable price? I think that plus the flashlight equipped pistol a fine way to check out bumps in the night.

    I found one 100.00 5 star rated school kid shield that folded up for a back pack, could be worn as front or rear armor or held as a shield.

    Sadly I snoozed and can not find it again on Amazon.


    1. Mike,

      Check They sell 12″x12″‘ squares of of raw ballistic fiberglass board rated to .44 mag for $39.95 each +shipping, unpainted with surface blems. They are 15/32″ thick and weigh a little over 5lbs each. Paint them yourself and use gorilla tape to fashion shoulder straps for your pancake and your good to go for less than a $100.

      1. Sorry, you said level three. Still for the price, something to consider.

        1. Dennis as I understand the ratings those panels ARE rated at 3A?

          What am I missing here?

        2. Yes, they’re rated 3A handgun as opposed to 3A type III for rifle protection up to 7.62×51. Figured you were looking for latter.
          Hope info helps.

      2. Dennis those panels sound pretty decent but I am unclear of your pancake comment. 12″ square chest and back? I am thinking more of 12″ x 36″ to cover a lot more of me while I have a pistol in other hand. I understand most home invasions normally do not involve Rifles so that shield could be useful. Yes where the panels hinge would not be very protective but better than underwear at 0 Dark 30? :-) Come to think about it I could hinge it lobster shell style so 12″ x 32″ with overlaps….

        Might also be useful for answering the door with a pistol? As LE what do you think? I mean full on Interceptor Armor and Level3A Tactical Helmet and Visor would be awesome but takes a lot of time to put on AND if it’s FedEx I can leave the pistol and shield out of sight. Do you think the FedEx guy would TALK if you showed in Full Tactical Armor? :-)

        Your thoughts?

        1. Mike, it’s a hard question. Police ballistic shields have high intensity forward projecting lights built into them. I personally believe a large hand held shield would encumber me, especially if using a hand held light. Police act in teams with the lead officer wielding the shield providing mobile cover for the designated shooters behind him. Can be difficult to do both jobs I would think.

  28. OAN Plus this fine morning guest(gun owners of America) on the Stephanie Hamill show spoke about the CDC working on gun violence and possibility of gun removal. Another way to try and destroy the 2A amendment, as we all know that those tools are bad!
    Then there is the fact that F ouch! ee is a apparently a part of the CDC, from what I have gathered.

  29. AC, never happen, there are to many of us and millions of millions of those things in this country.
    never happen. we will dredge the lakes if necessary to re-supply. : )

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