The thin veneer of civilized society

Is Civilization Just A Thin Veneer Between Civility And Civil Breakdown?

The thin veneer of civilized society

The veneer of civilization truly is thin. You might say it’s layered. When the thin veneer layers are peeled back, it’s not a pretty sight. In fact it can be downright ugly.

What is civilization?

The root of the word ‘Civilization’ is ‘Civ’ which comes from the Latin civis (CITIZEN).

‘Civil’, which is also derived from the same latin word, relates to citizens that are ‘trained’, ‘refined’. It is considered the cultural development of man from barbarism.

Are we as humans, naturally civilized? No, we are ‘trained’ to be civil.

“Every civilization is, among other things, an arrangement for domesticating the passions and setting them to do useful work.”

— Aldous Huxley (Brave New World)

Civilization is a Formula by Design

Is civilized society but a formula by design – of what we are supposed to be? (A thin veneer wrapped around us and held in place by training, indoctrination, and fear of punishment?)

Is the bigger picture and construct of our modern civilization actually an imposition by a smaller authority who understands how to posses the systemic means to power?

How many would behave badly?

If you look closely, the veneer of civilization appears to be remarkably thin.

How many would behave badly if they thought there would be no penalties for bad behavior? Would the ugly side of human nature emerge?

Are there triggers of man’s potentially ‘savage’ nature that could cause a breakout of this thin veneer, wicked and barbaric as ever?

How quickly might we transition from civil to barbaric, and what events could cause it?

Triggers of civil breakdown

The normalcy bias of a ‘civilized’ people results in the assumption that things (life) will always remain civilized. However civil breakdown is never far around the corner…

Modern humans, modern civilization (society), rely on today’s incredible distribution systems as well as human creature comforts, entertainment, and distractions.

When life gets difficult, people get cranky.

If these things (services) were to be removed, this itself would likely be enough to trigger civil breakdown to an extent, or even much further.

Systems and Distribution

There is a higher risk of civil breakdown when the vast majority are so extremely dependent upon external systems for survival. Why? because systems do break down, sometimes catastrophically.

For example if systems of distribution were to disrupt, it would hamper the means to easily acquire food, consumables, and other ‘necessities’ – and would result in a peeling away of civilization’s veneer.

Bubble Economics

Most of you are also fully aware of today’s ‘bubble’ economic climate and the mathematical certainty that it WILL break down or maybe even  collapse. When this happens there will quite certainly be civil breakdown to an extent – and a major change in ‘life as we know it’.

The economy might feel fine right now, however I have learned over the years that the big economy or especially your own personal economy, can “turn on a dime” (quickly)…

Very opposing political ideals

We’re living in a time here in the USA of incredible differences in opinion regarding who we are as a people, where we should be going (as a people), and how we should be governed as a people. Tensions have been extreme at times and have flared into sporadic civil breakdown.

Given the forces at play, I see this situation escalating as time goes on. Though I hope civil breakdown can be averted, I’m not so sure how this eventually plays out.

Is it just a thin veneer?

What are your thoughts on the so called, ‘thin veneer of civilization’?

Continue reading: 10 Survival Novels

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  1. Shrek: Ogres are like onions.
    Donkey: They stink?
    Shrek: Yes. No.
    Donkey: Oh, they make you cry.
    Shrek: No.
    Donkey: Oh, you leave em out in the sun, they get all brown, start sproutin’ little white hairs.
    Shrek: No. Layers. Onions have layers. Ogres have layers. Onions have layers. You get it? We both have layers.
    Donkey: Oh, you both have layers. Oh. You know, not everybody likes onions.

    Sorry, that is exactly what I thought about when I read this. Thing is, I’m afraid it’s right.

    Papa S.

      1. Papa S
        Pretty sure you know that was a reference to that great movie.
        My favorite is yhe one with Rumple Stiltskin, good lessons

  2. – Watch any class of Pre-K or kindergartners without the teacher present. just remember that is what humans will act like without adult supervision.

    – Papa

  3. Too many people think they have a right to things, like food, housing, and money.

    They go crazy when they don’t get what they feel is theirs, even if they don’t work for it.

    Hungry stupid people are dangerous

    They say we are 9 meals from TEOTWAWKI.

    I think this is true.

    You see it on the news every night

    1. Izzy,
      Yep… many think everything they are used to is a “right”… and I’m betting it’s a lot less than 9 meals. With so many people with so little food on hand, and total dependence on electricity and credit/debit/EBT cards I think there would be a panic as soon PDQ.

  4. Yes, definitely a very thin and delicate veneer on people. One example is the people making total asses of themselves on Black Friday shopping events every year.

    Most people do not want to take responsibility for themselves and/or their actions. I have traveled on many airline flights over the years and was often amazed by how short tempered,ill behaved and totally obnoxious people quickly became over really trivial things.

    If our JIT delivery system of goods around the country would have a some hiccups , people would just fall apart. It would not be pretty.

    Nine meals away from TEOTWAWKI , It would not surprise me at all.

  5. We already see things deteriorating, never mind the general public, just watch CONgress

  6. There are lots of examples. The Balkans in the 90s was my first firsthand experience where neighbors of 20-50 years started killing each other over religion and political differences.
    Civilization only lasts when there is comfort or during short periods of extreme discomfort. When people become uncomfortable and lose hope of becoming so then civilization breaks down.

    As messed up as things are or we think they are here civilization hasn’t broken down because the majority still sit on the couch, watch tv, listen to podcasts, drink beer and type away without fear of reprisal in the means of death or torture, still fed and with hope.

    I’m no different from that description. I still feel that there is hope under current conditions for improvement. I’m not willing to scrap everything, destroy life and burn it all down because I still think there is hope.

    1. Matt on Oklahoma;
      I hope your optimism is correct, but the older I get and the more I see of this Country’s radical thinking…….

      1. Not trying to start a fight just thinking thoughts on why I have hope and continue to plug away hoping for the best, preparing for the worst.

        You mentioned Radical Thinking.

        Radical Thinking like building a wall to secure the border something that hasn’t been done since The inception of the country and hasn’t ever really been attempted or Radical Thinking of teaching little kids to be LBGTOQ? Radical Thinking isn’t all bad but it can be. These 2 examples show that depending on most folks perspective.

        I’m pretty sure everyone here has hope of change and comfort to a degree because no one has attacked say Kalifornia with all its messed up laws, economy and citizenship. While states have threatened to pull from the union but it hasn’t happened yet. No one has come, from here anyway, to kill me for my views, job or thoughts. People are still voting (in record numbers) politicking and expressing support for politicians rather than overthrow. This is very apparent on this forum.

        Civilization hasn’t broken down that far yet so IMO they still think there is hope overall.

        I’ve seen it when it happened overseas. I’ve seen it in prisons. I’ve seen small scale short lived stuff here.

        I’ve been wrong before though. That’s why I do prepare for certain events.

        1. I see more and more of the fringes–a friend who screamed that violence was the only option left when Trump was elected. She didn’t like me pointing out that when O was elected she wanted me to just accept it. Senators throwing fits on the senate floor, or staging sit-downs in response to something legally voted on by their colleagues. People calling for the arrest of the sitting president. People deliberately countermanding his orders and nothing is done.

          It’s still a small minority, but how many does it take to whip up a mob out of a normal afternoon crowd? Why do people burn their own homes “in protest” of something they don’t understand? A small minority can do a great deal of damage, and in the current political environment NO ONE would dare to put the clamps on it.

          On a normal, peaceful day, the animal is just under the surface. You alluded to it in your comment–while the animal is well fed and entertained, everything is great. When those things stop, the animal is the first thing that emerges.

          1. Hi Lauren,
            In the LA riots, crowds looted/burned their local grocery stores, liquor stores and even their own post office. Afterward, they were protesting and there was even more unrest because they had nowhere to get groceries and nowhere to get their mail (including paper welfare checks that were issued back at that time).

          2. SoCalGal, you may remember the rioters made it as far as Koreatown. That’s when they encountered shop-keepers on rooftops, tactically deployed behind cover everywhere with an impressive array of firearms aimed at the street.

            It was simply AMAZING to watch. Wonder if it would still happen today.

          3. ticgyver,
            It was something.
            People lost their minds. It was like watching a bunch of soul-less creatures rampage – down their most base instincts to take, hurt, scream – whatever. It went bad so fast… I watched a place I ate lunch that day burn to the ground on live TV that night – and their offices were nowhere near the street of the riots.
            And watching those shopkeepers trying to protect their stores was something. the whole thing was sickening and sad and frightening all at once.

        2. Matt in OK:
          Are you kidding, this old fart loves a good discussion.
          Will respond soon, lack of time right now
          BTW thanks for the reply Sir

    2. Matt I too hope your right. However I suspect like many on this list you are closer to 60 than 20 years old.

      Seasoned folks tend to still have some well ingrained CIVILization in them, often from Dad’s belt. We knew that there is a winner and there are 2nd place etc. Most of our younger folks who got “Participations Trophies” so no one “Lost” and never had more than a time out are easily swayed by sweet words “YOU Deserve IT”. Whatever “IT” is.

      Note I said MOST youngsters. Happily there are some well raised Civil young adults BUT sometimes I wonder if we HANDICAPPED them having to live in a mostly ME FIRST Lawless World.

      If you accept that “Normal” is what the masses do then We are abnormal as is our civil children.

      Be aware that most of your troubles will come from a 20 mile radii of your area. Know your neighbors and stay alert.

  7. Human technology is the source of our power and the source of our weakness and, most likely, the source of our extinction.

    In the not too distant past, people needed to work closely together to survive and knew how they each contributed to a shared goal, like bringing in the crop, or building a barn. They knew to come running when the church bell rang, even in the dead of night, rifle in one hand, fire bucket in the other. We were all much closer to each other…as we had to be…and social behavior evolved toward cooperation and mutual benefit.

    Today, our technological wizardry has allows huge numbers of people to live in very close proximity without the need of familiarity, cooperation, joint defense, a common creed, to survive. Hermits may live alone in the midst of millions.

    The terms of the old “Social Contract” have changed and are no longer ubiquitous in our communities. The fire, which used to melt us all together into a uniquely American cultural melting pot, now burns low and cultural fragmentation is increasing. Why make the effort to blend cultural differences into some workable mixture, when there is no need?

    Instead of bringing everyone together and evolving common ground relationships, people are being encouraged to identify with some social faction, to remain apart and distinct, and to amplify their differences for political gain, and to justify the extension of special “Rights,” exclusive THEM alone, to the detriment of all others.

    When we are not trying to melt together, we are pulling apart, and becoming weaker as a Nation, to the point where we become unable to preserve our Liberty.

    Thus, this is the exact reason people are now trained in “Diversity.” Not to evolve commonly shared values, but to preserve our differences, and, thereby, turn every imaginable cultural characteristic into its own Balkanized tribe, to take part in constant squabbling with every other tribe, for power.

    Now, the Socialist is happy, as such a dis-unified society of assorted cultural clans, is easier to conquer and the people easier to stampede toward the promise of a new, unified, and totally Just society, whose cultural dictates are enforced with bullets and bayonets upon the people, for the good of the people.

    1. Ision,
      You make a lot of important points. You cram a lot of people with different beliefs and backgrounds into cities (in particular) and indoctrinate everyone to believe that others are “out to get” them… and everyone pulls apart. The very seams of societal fabric are so different than they were generations ago – already strained and one little cut and the entire thing would tear open – maybe not in some smaller, tight-knit communities- but those would be few and far between.

      1. People are naturally violent, and naturally uneducated. Most are quite emotional and ignorant. Many are simply mentally ill.

        If Government thinks its job is to encourage social fragmentation, that Government shall evolve into Mob Rule. The strongest Mob will rule and shall have no problem enforcing their culture upon everyone with coercive force…which is exactly what Government is.

        The Monopoly Of Force.

  8. Seems the more “connected” people get the further they are apart.
    This “civilization” we are growing into has disconnected so very many much from reality.

    Start with a newborns fresh mind, what do we teach this child? Look at the “Cartoons” the movies later, now look at some of the “Games” they are exposed through all their lives.

    Add to this the instant gratification of “Modern Society”.
    Top it all with unlimited lack of responsibilities and add unlimited $$$$$.

    Society/Civilization as we (us old timers) knew it 50-100 years ago is gone, we now live in a world of selfishness, give-ma-dats and truly hateful people.
    Take one single convenience from the masses………. Need I say more?

    Yes!!!! There is an extremely thin veneer of civility, and every day one can see this openly disappearing, read or watch the News as the number of blatant murders, suicides, acts of violence, so-on that are exploding across the Country and the World.

    Heck, just drive a crowded Freeway during rush-hour and see how many other drivers want to ”take you out” just for driving 2 MPH slower than they are…..

    Now imagine the Cell-Phone services (Smart Phones) going down for a week…… OR when Trump gets re-elected in 2020….

    1. NRP
      I had a 20 something lecturing me on how the newest thugga movies are no different than those violent old John Wayne movies….

      There are no words.

      I just walked away, not worth even engaging such stupidity.

      1. Tommyboy
        The word is “Ethics”, plain & simple.

        They will have to look it up in a dictionary IF they know how to do that.

    2. NRP,
      Good to “see” you!
      And could not agree more! People will get out of their cars and beat the crap out of one another over getting cut-off, or losing a parking place, or someone going too slow. Had guy flip me off the other day after cutting me off while I was driving full speed – because I just shook my head (which he saw in his rear view mirror and decided to answer after being the aggressor). Nice… his mother would be so proud.

      People are desensitized to violence – movies, video games, the Internet – heck, just watching the news. At my house, the local news is known as the “murder report”… and that’s just the local news network. A couple of kids (now grown) in the extended family grew up playing Grand Theft Auto and who knows what else… then their parents wondered why the kids would beat the crap our of each other and were super-aggressive as teens. Didn’t take genius to put 2 & 2 together on that one. Thankfully they both seem to be growing out of it.

      I know we’ve talked about it countless times here in the last few years – but turn off the power, stop taking credit/debit/EBT cards in an outage, snarl traffic and close the chain stores that rely on electricity to process purchases – and people will be in full frenzy in no time. Especially if no one is communicating to let people know the power will be back on shortly… it will get ugly real quick. Sigh.

  9. People are essentially animals. At the base, that’s what we are (I’ll leave the discussion of our spiritual aspect for another time). Civilization fights against that animal, but up until the last few generations there was always another place for the animal to go when under pressure. Always a new frontier for those who didn’t fit the “civilized” mold.

    There are just as many people now who don’t fit the mold, and the mold is tighter and more constricting, forcing even more to the fringes of civilization with nowhere to go. Yes, they lash out at the slightest excuse.

    The Roman empire put them in the army. The Chinese empire killed them. The British empire deported them. Our society seems determined to celebrate the animal, even while squeezing the trap tighter around its behavior. Not a good combination.

  10. Ken, We are on the brink of civil war in the U.S. 3 months ago me an my children were “victims” of a Road Rage -er…

    Long story short a SJW attempted to ram my $3k 89 suburban off the road with my children inside using his $40k+ plus new dodge charger.

    This SJW jumps out at starts to come out at me and my kids luckily we were at a standoff at about 25ft.

    Lets just say he went from “im gonna kill ya” mode to whining and groveling “I’m going to call the police on you” at which point i replied to the scum sucker” please do call the police! Back off I have kids in this car and I will defend them.”

    I think this guy flipped out on me because i was driving an old model truck and he thought that i was well just a ignorant (read my handle above.)

    It was a tough situation all because I made a mistake and got in his way in the pass lane to make an upcoming left turn off the highway. Talk about a thin veneer of civility it is completely gone as far as I am concerned!

    Also as he was approaching the truck I never took my truck out of gear 8000lbs aimed right at him with just the break applied could took my foot right off of it.

    – Blessed are the meek for they make easy targets!

    1. Kinda like the guy yelling at me shaking his fists and gassing his engine when i stopped at a yield sign the other day,
      It didnt make me pull out any faster, but i did click open my knife so when he stuck his hand in my window he would pull back a stump,,,, its happened before, pretty sure it will happen again, people are un civil and think they are the only ones on the road

  11. I have a staff of four techs handling a couple of hundred calls per day on various power equipment. Some people are literally prepared to murder others, over such things as missing hardware or unsatisfactory assembly instructions. Ohhhh and the anti-China rhetoric is beyond insane right now.

    People you would never expect are losing their heads. A lady last week, super educated, Masters in Social Work and she chaired some organization that sought to “fight bullying” wherever it occurs. This woman was pushing her weight around and threatening everyone who would listen as to what she would do if she didn’t get her way. …. I asked for that one to be passed to me .. That was just too much fun.

    Two Sundays ago, a car whips up the street at 3am, plants the brights right in my window, then a raucous group spilled into the street, screaming and yelling. I went out there, blinded them back, then blew my stack, not even knowing who it was. Turns out it was my neighbor. School teacher, grandmother, good neighbor for over a decade… 3am, raising hell like a drunken teenager. It gets better… She called the police, on me! For yelling at them. Said she “felt intimidated”. I saw it on video the next day; two cops walking back to their cruisers at o’dark-thirty, shaking their heads in disbelief.

    Scary times!

    1. tmcgyver
      I take it the police did not stop by your house for a video tape of her making an arse out of herself. Was she intoxicated?

      Woooo that would have made good video for the officers to see. lol

      1. AC, the local cops in our town know me and my home very well, due to an unfortunate series of events in past years. I have a very good relationship with the whole shop. At one point on the video the police supervisor made a gesture – towards my house, as if saying: ‘Him? Really!’ No, they didn’t see any need to bang my door or even take a second look. The dummy next door made enough of an arse of herself that shunning will probably be more effective than shopping that video for effect.

  12. Working for the water department for a major city, i see it first hand. Things get real ugly in seconds after turning off the water to a customers house. It gives me a first hand experience and reinforces the mind set. And thats not a life or death situation yet.

  13. I work at Wally-World! Need I say more!! See the dregs of society everyday and yes the people of walmart do exist!! We are in a heap-o-trouble!!

    1. – But the pictures of the Walmartians are some of the funniest things on the internet!

      – Papa S.

    2. sunstateboy is right. We are in a heap-o-trouble. There is an underclass of drooling useless idiots that just needs to be culled. Sorry, call me whatever you want; it’s just nature.

      We have an element of this too where I work. Human-ish stumps who sign a contract with a third party to acquire a $500 ($379 online) piece of equipment, for only $39 per month!! (for 36 months).

      Then when it breaks, or their credit line runs out, or perhaps they are just too stupid to use it…. hoo boy! Lookout! They got their rights! They got their threats! They got ‘they loyahz’ on speed dial! And they got all the time in the WORLD, in the middle of a workday, with a fully charged Obama phone; and a chip on their shoulder where a brain might have stood, perhaps generations ago.

      1. – tmcgyver,
        Unfortunately, I find myself agreeing with you and others here. My fear is that when the S does HTF, we will be in the splatter zone. Getting through any disaster is in good part a matter of luck; I just try to stack the odds in my favor as much as I can. that’s probably the best any of us can do.

        – Papa S.

  14. Thin veneer… and getting thinner all the time.

    There are so many people in metropolitan areas. Too many vehicles, too many people, and too many people wanting everything “right now”. One the whole, society is a group of spoiled people. People too young to know (and improperly educated) about the horrors of war, to learn about people who had to help each other survive against mother nature, too self-indulged to know what it is like to do without the basics. People who think everything they want is really a “need” and a “right”.

    All these people screaming for free health care are going to be most unhappy if they get their wish and are ill and can’t get care for days/weeks/months. People who think things are “free” and have no idea what the costs will really be (financial and otherwise). People too ignorant to know that if something goes really, truly wrong the .g o v will NOT be able to care for everyone.

    Most people have an incredibly strong sense of entitlement – that belief that they can do anything, have anything, and anything they want they should just be able to get… usually not through hard work or sacrifice… instant gratification is the order of the day.

    I really do hope for the best (at least in my lifetime) but in my heart I know that it would take almost nothing to unravel the entire thing. Dark thoughts at the end of a long day.

  15. (How many would behave badly?
    If you look closely, the veneer of civilization appears to be remarkably thin.

    How many would behave badly if they thought there would be no penalties for bad behavior? Would the ugly side of human nature emerge?)

    Nothing bad will happen to people that behave badly. Unlikely, today e have The Government to keep people in line and for the most part it works. But there is a small percentage that don’t understand cause and effect so we have jails.

    But in old-times we had the real fear of pissing someone off and getting shot and killed.

    Robert Heinlein, a Science Fiction writer (Some say the best at his craft) had a saying

    “An armed society is a polite society.”

    Simple meaning bad actions got you killed when most people had guns.

    And just because people had guns (and a lack of gun control laws) did not make it a deadly time.

    I read someplace that in the height of The Old West Tombstone AZ had a death rate of less then .5% per year.

    If the government were to go away I think people would end up much more aware of how their actions effect others.

    I’m sure there would be an adjustment period where dumb people would learn the hard way, but in a few months it would shake out.

    and sometimes the gene pool needs a bit of chlorine.

    Also people don’t like anarchy and on a local would form new peace keepers.

    Not to say it would be a good time because it wouldn’t be. But in the long run it would resolve itself. The dust always settles down.

    Probably the biggest problem with a bout of lawlessness’s is that the government would institute draconian measures to take away more freedoms and cement it’s power base. And the sad thing is that people would want this…

    And I prep and plan but I tend to not worry about things I can’t control so I only give it minimal mental thought.

  16. Long ago and far away a group of young women at the church I attended went off to study at a very rigorous bible college. Caught up with some of them a year later to find out how it went. One complained that it was all rules, how bleak the daily routine was, and that the frustrations never let up. For her it was an external imposition to be resisted at every turn. Another told me that she accepted her responsibility for choosing to be there, internalized the discipline inherent in the organization, had a great time, and learned a lot. I was young then too and her words have stayed with me.

    I realized that I had learned to internalize the discipline at my mother’s knee. Chores come before meals. Private property is to be respected. Looking out for others should be my first response in any situation. Practice may not make perfect, but it will set a pattern. Thinking and considering the consequences should come before acting, esp before acting or speaking out of one’s frustrations.

    For many it seems civilization is a nearly transparent veneer, it’s so thin. For others it is a high quality finish that penetrates deeply, ages beautifully, and is very durable. And it’s our choice how we behave when we think no is looking or no one cares. To go all bible-y “By their fruit shall you know them.”

  17. In the 1980’s I found out how thin that veneer of civilization can be when I met 4 guys who had been hiking without food for the prior 2 days.

    They were hiking out of the backcountry after their food was taken by a bear within a National Park. They asked me for food and after tossing them a bag of granola I had, one of them started saying that they could bum-rush me and take all of my food.

    I agreed with them and reached back in and pulled out my 5 shot revolver and flat badge. I had them hand me their wallets and removed their drivers licenses prior to the long walk out to a waiting patrol vehicle. I also had a radio with me at the time.

    Tactically, I was a bit nervous knowing that I would have to make every shot count in event of the bum-rush so I told the mouthy one making the threats that I would gut shoot him first because it is a large target, he is the closest and we were 18+ miles away from the nearest road.

    No one liked the idea of being gut shot in the middle of nowhere to die a slow-lingering death. We all walked out with no further challenge to my temporary position of advantage.

    Since that time, I have tried to think about increasing my firepower in a small lightweight package to act as a force-multiplier. Thus today, I am a big fan of the Clock handguns and the Clock clones because I have been in situations where the threat comes in multiples. I just had to wait a few years for Glocks to be shipped over into the CONUS.

    Rural patrol also meant that I was solo in a car or truck with backup being an hour away or in the form of a second weapon on my person somewhere.

    All of these young men were from the 213 area code. I never saw them again and I never went to see them either.

    1. I hope you were munching on candy bars loud enough for them to hear as you hiked back to the road.

  18. Listening to a segment on Rush’s show yesterday, he played a clip of Joe Biden at a town hall meeting. This will not be verbatim by as close as I can recall her words to Joe. “I can not live in a country run by an unduly elected president”, then she goes onto spout how that man is not following the Constitution of the United States.

    It was sad to hear how indoctrinated this woman was, for she was well spoken and truly believe her diatribe. This demonstrates how the liberal media has slowly brought the lifeforms on this plant down to being ’emotionally controlled’, no longer using the ability to process fact from fiction. The veneer is thinner than most realize, as we approach the year 2020 I do believe it could possible become a chaotic mad house of violence.

    1. AC – yep.

      Lots of emotion, not a lot of thought going into public speaking these days. Seems like a lot just want to spit in people’s faces and then walk away. Zombie apocalypse must have already happened; so many brains seem to have been eaten.

    2. AC
      Just imagine what it will be like when DJT wins both electoral college and the pop by a landslide

  19. Here is something that came to mind as i was reading various headlines this morning,
    We all know and agree pretty much that yes there is a fine line between civility and chaos.
    With that in mind, and seeing the rolling boil developing across the middle east and between the US and China.
    Knowing that most who are in government are psychopaths, and with the situation of monetary insolvency, could it possibly be that these government people want war, it woukd acheive a basket full of end results.

    1. Migrant issues would be quickly changed, many would disappear, many new refugees would be created but they would be of a different range of people on the move for a different reason, same end result.

    2. The populations of all countries would be affected. My guess is to the down side, we be useless eaters to the elites. The distribution of populations would be easily manipulated and altered. Under war powers in almost all countries self determination would disappear or those opposed would be wiped off the map by government goons as has been proven throughout history, they will take care of any who dont go along with the plan and the gov can easily justify itself. This is a typical situation, read history, its all over.

    3. Manufacturing would necessarily be reborn to the vast majority of industry capable countries, the FUSA pops into my mind as the first in line for a serious need of rebirth of industrial capability. Nothing builds machinery like war!

    4. War would also give a job to every last one of those aspiring migrants so conveniently changing address, they would either work or fight, otherwise see part B of #2 above. Goons know no bounds, ask the Jews in Germany about that some time……

    5. Monetary,,,, what better way to completely alter the world monetary system, under the guise of the great rebuild, the one world government and one world electronic currency, etc etc etc,,,

    Do not underestimate these people my friends. If i a lowly homesteader and craftsman can come up with this over my morning cup of java, dont you think these so called “elites” who have a psycho bent toward subjugation and control would have this thought?
    I know many from that class, they think differently than you or I.
    We think of our families, our homes, our garden, our hobby of the day etc etc, these others, their cup is never full enough, they want more, and stop at nothing to acheive their goals, just look at history, again, the examples are there, everywhere, from genocide in Africa to Hitler exterminating his opposition, to the Holomodor in Russia and on back through the eons, there have been those who move through life happy and busy and those who want everything that everybody else has….
    And use an army to take it.
    Thin veneer? IMHO its not so much a veneer as it is a film.

  20. I worked many years as a paramedic, in a medium/large city. As all LEO and even firefighters know, there is a very ugly underbelly to humanity. The filth and chaos some folks choose to live in, is disgusting. The beast comes out for folks under pressure. Most don’t handle it well. When things “go wrong” it is never their fault and they are looking for someone to blame. Part of it is human nature, but much of it is entitlement attitudes learned over time.

    Please remember, in stressful situations where police/fire/ems are called, those folks have adrenaline too. Experienced responders learn to handle it well, but don’t push them too hard. Remember, you called them to handle a situation you were unable to handle alone. When you call police/fire/ems you are giving up control of the situation. Please act accordingly. Don’t begrudge them for doing things in a way you would not. They likely have considerations, you haven’t even thought of.

    Yea, there is a very thin veneer of civility. The beast beneath, is in all of us.

    1. ( When you call police/fire/ems you are giving up control of the situation.)

      Sorry but the giving up part is forced by government. They get downright testy if any of us decide to deal with others without governments involvement. In fact with gun control and them prosecuting people that defend themselves from people doing bad things it’s clear government wants control. No giving about it on my part, they TAKE.

      1. Chuck Findlay,
        I agree, don’t call unless you’re willing to give up control. There are lots of “snowflakes” who will call with trivial things. Most on this site are prepared to handle many situations, on their own. My point, first responders are in unfamiliar settings, surrounded by people unknown to them. The number of scum-bags encountered on a daily basis, will make anyone downright testy.

        I am very much, pro 2A.

  21. Anyone who even remotely considers himself to be a survivalist or prepper agrees that civilization is merely a veneer. Anyone who even remotely considers himself to be a survivalist or prepper must be prepared to “roof Korean.” To not be willing/able to do so merely places the person in the prey category.

    “Lord of the Flies” involved young boys. With a complete breakdown of modern society, much of humanity will find itself reaching that same point, some sooner, others later.

  22. Is the veneer thin???
    Does Black Friday come to mind??
    The violence that happens to get their kids sale items on the new gadgets, the 72 inch TV, the newest phone?
    The violence that will occur in a real Shtf will be horrendous. And some, most here have seen it occur.
    What bothers me, is the “quiet” places, where things are not too off keel, when things happen. Things are fairly calm……
    What happens when the REAL Shtf hits??

    Prep on….not liking what I’m seeing/reading lately……

  23. I’ve noticed this about humans:

    They rarely want to die.
    They want to avoid discomfort at just about any cost to others that they think they can get away with.
    They want more regardless of what they have.
    They can justify nearly anything to avoid personal accountability for themselves and their actions.
    They don’t want an opportunity that they didn’t feel entitled to because they don’t want to feel obligated to act on said opportunity they didn’t explicitly want.
    They don’t usually realize that when they are trying desperately to be the good guy they may accidentally become the bad guy.

    Lastly, boolits change perspective on all the above, mostly due to the first one.

    So basically I’m saying yes. And to buy boolits. Haha.

  24. Many will say we never saw the violence coming. As tax payers continue to leave certain urban centers and as each faction of society continue to group in with their own, political, financial, race, religion, … the animosity against others increases.

    What we end up with is a population that will erupt in violence in certain urban areas while most others in the country sit on their couches and watch tv. It will be the greatest shock when the breakout occurs and rampaging gangs come looking for their share.

    The time when there is enough critical mass to get 10,000 or so, motivated to violence is the big question but inevitable.

  25. Interesting topic. I meant to get to bed earlier, but I bury a friend tomorrow so I am awake.

    With that said, I have worked my life away in “public service”. I near the age of drawing my pension. I’ve seen every piece of scum you can imagine and they come from both sides of the tracks. The odd thing is those on the left assume that if hostility starts them all the public servants are military will automatically take the side of the left liberals.

    I don’t know a single person in my bunch that would take up liberal causes. As a matter of fact several have said if it all goes to pot then they plan on going on a liberal eradication spree. A few I laughed off, but others I realize are dead serious. I met a man that survived Bosnia a few years ago. His stories make the hair on your arms stand up when he talks of that war. After hearing his stories, I hope we never find out what is possible.

  26. This is no joke what I am telling you it was a story which happened in area I grew up in recently on the radio news.

    One vehicle was tailgating another vehicle, so the first car tapped its brakes letting the driver behind know they were to close. Vehicle #2 goes around vehicle #1 where by they slow down causing Vehicle #1 to be the tailgater. Then Vehicle #2 pulls into the secondary lane so they can pull up long side of vehicle #1. Apparently words were yelled at each other all while driving. Yes, I know dumb arses…. OK… It gets even better!

    Vehicle #2 pulls out a pistol(thankfully a pelt pistol)shoots driver of vehicle #1 in the side of his face. Then speeds off. Vehicle #1 goes home calls the police and medical services, the local leo’s request security camera footage from the neighboring homeowners since vehicle #2 went down that street.

    Yes, they found the vehicle & the driver who shot the other person. We are not finished while arresting him, his girlfriend comes up to the police yelling & screams nasty words—spitting on them. Telling them they had NO right to arrest him, it was his RIGHT to shoot the other person for being an idiot.

    Yes that is the SJW’s(social justice warriors) that have been raised by our educational system, video games, an lack of parenting under the welfare indoctrination. We are in deep pooooh. 🤦😣

    1. AC
      Speaking of thin veneers and society,
      Is there any truth to PGE shutting off systems during dry season and how will that affect most areas? Or is it just an exceuse to pull power from rural areas to keep those thin skinned city dwellers cool with their AC running 24/7?
      That would definitely show a thin veneer if they shut of large swaths of power.

      1. Tommyboy
        Hope we have the other place listed ours, so we have a place to keep acdh cool while PG&E plays their game of power on-power off. Horse pucky

        It is just another way for them to hike up the rates to pay for there lack of infrastructure upgrades over the years. One can not fix stupid! NO matter how hard one try’s.

  27. I would not describe people as naturally brutal. There are many beautiful stories of people risking themselves to help others when there is nothing to gain but thanks.

    I would describe people as widely adaptable. When circumstances become brutal so do many people, because it’s a survival instinct. And if they survive that trait gets passed on which is perhaps why it would not take much of a disruption to make many people resort to hostile violent behavior, and it is wise to remember that, but I also wouldn’t write off the entire human race either.

    This theme has been covered many times on The Walking Dead. Usually it doesn’t fair well for those responding as I have, but to quote V “a man can die, b an idea lives on”, and isn’t that exactly what these United States are built on, an idea?

    1. Why resort to “hostile violent behavior” when 4 out of 10 would support socialism – in other words, the gimedats just want all your stuff for free. Why fight when they can vote for a system that will reward the lazy as much as the hard working. So, who’s fault is it, ours! When good men do nothing comes to mind. Time for the pitchforks and torches soon.

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