Group Unity Is Going To Be A Big Component In A Long Term Situation.

group unity

“Why can’t we all just get along?” Answer: Because we’re human.

Unless you’re young and naive, you know full well that there is seemingly an infinite personality variety among we humans. No two people are alike (in more ways than one!).

A challenge can be “getting along” with others. Sometimes it’s easy. Some people just seem to “click” or to get along just fine. Others, not so much.

This is true in all groups. At work, at play, even family. People turn out the way they are.

The reasons why they turn out that way is not for me to say. What I am saying is that everyone’s different, and group unity will be critical to success in a long term situation (e.g. post collapse survival).

Okay, so that’s pretty obvious. Not everyone’s the same and not everyone gets along…

Think about this:

Some of us preppers also prepare for worst case scenarios. Perhaps total breakdown of society due to one reason or another. A time in which we’re literally without rule of law (WROL) defending what’s ours, surviving the Apocalypse, rebuilding from societal breakdown.

Many of us will not literally be alone, but will be among a group. Maybe it’s your own group. Maybe it’s someone else’s group that you’ve joined. Although more mouths to feed there is power in numbers. More work can be done. Easier to deal with defense and security.

However the more people the more challenging for group unity.

That said, I sometimes think about the conflicts that WILL arise within a group, especially during times of stress and duress. It could become a very serious problem indeed.

I just read a related comment here on MSB that reads as follows:

Another thing to take into consideration is personalities and possible conflicts between those in the group. This is a big one for us and because of different issues, there would be family not included because there would be major conflict if we had to live together for more than a short period of time.

I think group unity is going to be a big component in a long term situation.

None of my family knows that we’ve started prepping and they will never find out. It’s just how it has to be,


Group unity will indeed be crucial for long term success. While there will always be an extent of disagreement and differing opinion among two or more people, one wonders of the potential for conflict that may endanger the group.

A key to this will be recognizing that a given person or persons might become a problem in this regard. Some personality traits simply won’t be conducive towards group unity.

Some obvious personality traits that may be detrimental include:

– A “hot head”
– selfish
– lazy
– better than thou
– prima donna (vain, difficult to work under direction)
– needy
– very argumentative
– jealous
– divisive

While not a personality trait as such, differing political ideals will often lead towards disagreement. For me this is often (not always) a general gauge as to whether or not I might get along with someone…

I do have many friendly acquaintances with those of different ideology than me, however I know that most of them would not fit into my “group” during a long term situation.

Some hard decisions may have to be made. There WILL be others who will want into your group. Many of them will be people you already know who themselves have not prepared.

You might think about it now, before you are “forced” to think about it when there’s a knock at the door. Who, if any, would you let into your group?

Lets say you already have a group. Here are a few more questions:

– How will group unity be best maintained?
– Will there be written rules? (Have you written them yet?)
– How will decisions be made?
– Do you need a definitive leader?
– Will power be shared?
– Some people don’t respond well to “authority”…
– Will some groups be led by a hardcore “dictator”?
– How will you deal with troublemakers or dissension?
– How to deal with ordinary personality conflicts?

I believe that a best case scenario would be a group of like minded individuals of varying contributing talents. Each of them strong in their own way while not selfish or demanding that they themselves be “King”.

That said, I don’t like the idea of too many “followers” in a group — however a group filled with A-type personalities may be difficult at best. Where’s the balance?

Anyway, I thought this would be a good topic to think about today…

Somewhat related: A potentially interesting read:

“It’s better to detect sinister intentions early than respond to violent actions late.”
“Left of Bang” offers a crisp lesson in survival and helps readers avoid the bang.


  1. It’s good to think about this now so you have a plan in place if/when a SHTF situation hits. We have our initial group hammered out and it is what it is.

  2. It’s easy to choose your battle buddies. You do have to consider their family units as well. Will you get along with their wives, kids etc…. I can’t image dealing with multiple pissed of women on my keester when their kids go hungry for a few days. :(

  3. Funny…. this exact subject is what worries me the most if the SHTF. My wife and I get along great with 95% of our family/prepping unit but the sister in law is a wild card. Can’t make decisions and likes to be in control…. we’ve coined the phrase “shuffle-step” for her. :)

    1. We have a family member we have tagged with “the relative nobody wants”

      Nobody wants her in the good times, I can imagine what she would be like in the SHTF times.

      Also have a family member we have tagged “brown shirt”

      Again, good or bad times, nobody wants to be around him. He would turn you in to “authorities” for a jar of jam (WWII ghetto ref).

  4. Cohesion, Cooperation, Conflict resolution will be tall orders for some, especially in high stress situations. Just because ol “Clem” is easygoin, willing and happy don’t necessarily mean he will remain that way when the fire breaks out. Some people take it more or less in stride whatever it is, some people come unglued over the smallest of obstacles. This will be an insurmountable problem for some people and groups.

    Good article and food for thought.

    1. wood56gas,
      You make an important point about reactions under stress. Someone who is calm, reasonable, etc… most of the time may become a basket case when fearful, sleep deprived, or put into dangerous situations. It’s hard to know which sane people will lose their minds when things get really bad.

      1. sleep deprive!!

        When my father was passing from cancer, living at our house under hospice care, I ended up trying to give care 24/7.

        Didn’t work out so well. After I BLEW UP at hubby over a real minor thing, my brother came and spent time, spelling me.

        Sleep deprivation will be a serious issue, especially when there are not enough team members to make sure all get some good down time.

    2. Wood56gas: on your point of ‘some people come unglued over the smallest of obstacles”-we had a bad spring storm go through earlier this year and it took out the power for several days. A family member had their driveway blocked in with downed power wires so they couldn’t drive out. We stopped by and walked in and found one of them hysterical-she kept saying that they were going to die if they didn’t get out right away (this was about 6 hours after electricity went out).

      While I was calming her down my dh had to stop her spouse from drinking untreated water from their unkempt koi pond. They had no water or food backup at all, and had no wits about them to take care of themselves. That power outage incident definitely was a factor in our decision to not include them in our group. That was a very short term SHTF situation, one that was more of a nuisance than a crisis. I can’t imagine how these people would respond in a true, long term SHTF situation.

      1. Svzee,
        Good grief… it’s sad, but I think a lot of people will be like that really quickly… in a total panic and making poor decisions right from the start. Did these folks learn anything from that day… do they have some food and water now (so they don’t die after 6 hours)? I’m guessing not.

        The tough part will be if there is an emergency and these folks think of you because you knew what to do when the power went out (plus you’re family). If they get hungry enough or desperate enough they may show up at your door and not take “no” or “go to such-and-so’s house” for an answer.

      2. Quote, “We stopped by and walked in and found one of them hysterical-she kept saying that they were going to die if they didn’t get out right away (this was about 6 hours after electricity went out). While I was calming her down my dh had to stop her spouse from drinking untreated water from their unkempt koi pond.”

        So, after 6 hours your neighbor was so desperate for water that they were going to drink from a koi pond? Really? Their faucet wasn’t producing water? (municipal water will be pressurized for a significant time before running dry — if on a well, I understand).

        It was desperate to the extent that your dh had to “stop” them from drinking from a koi pond?

        They had nothing at all in the refrigerator? (milk, other liquids)?

        A 6 hour desperation time seems even abnormal for “sheeple”…

        1. They’re on a well (it’s my parents) and they keep almost no food in their house (that’s a whole ‘nother story, not for here….). No back up water, no milk/soda etc. They also do not have a phone……
          I better stop now :P

        2. Nailbanger-I know you kid, but their estate will be used to pay off their mountain of debt. When the time comes we’re not expecting or wanting a penny from them. Lots of bad stuff under the surface with this relationship, unfortunately.
          Ok, enough about my wacky family lol.

  5. After SHTF I don’t think it’s going to be a “long-term” scenario. Those who think that preppers will “rebuild civilization” are mistaken. That won’t be the situation at all. Bible prophecy makes it clear that we’re talking about living in an evil society run by the antichrist. Seven years max.

    1. More like “rebuild communities”. And it won’t happen overnight by a long shot… Rebuilding will be after the dust has settled so to speak.

  6. Every battle plan is perfect………until the first shot is fired. My “group” consists of family and some very close friends. I know that some have organized or semi-organized groups with a leadership structure and have made extensive plans on how you will react when the pin has been pulled.

    I don’t. My family will automatically defer to me as titular head because, well, I’m Daddy. While my close friends, who I plan on having mutual aid and reliance on, are good, reliable people, they are Type-A personalities like myself, and are leaders of their own family structure. While we will consult and try to work with a consensus, I have no illusions, they will defer to what they see as best for their families.

    Fact is, no doubt, dissension will rear it’s ugly head. Compromises will have to be made. Mutual defense will only work, though, if a leader for that function has been agreed upon early. A bunch of armed individuals is a mob. A group of armed individuals, each with a known objective and direction, is a fighting force.

    Fact is, other than the rule of threes in prepping, everything else will come to play as it will. That’s where improvise and adapt takes over. Not trying to be too simplistic, just realistic.

    1. Hey Dennis

      You always make excellent points. As long as I am here I will always make any final decisions. I am very fortunate to have at least 7 capable, level headed, logical, mature actin, young people in my family. I have been around 5 of them since they were born. Now they range from 18 – 40 yrs of age..

      Will I listen to their concerns?? I would be a fool not to, they are all very smart, and clear headed.

      Will I change or make a decision because of what my people might think or say?? Maybe, I would be a bigger fool not to consider the possibility they might have a better idea than me. They are not stupid.

      If push comes to shove, I also think everyone of em will do as needed. They know that “now” is where we are.

      I feel there would be minor conflicts here and there even with my group. I honestly do not see that as a major concern for us. If we did have a “major” problem of some sort, I doubt it would actually be major, that’s relative, I am confident we could work it out and never look back. I have tried to show em all for their whole lives how to solve a problem and move on down the line. At the same time it’s important to “solve’ that problem instead of just goin around it. I admit, there probably has been a time or two my example could have been better………….hahahahahahaha

  7. What is meant by “better than though”

    Did you mean “better than thou”

  8. Tough subject to approach. I will be in a small group of 4-7 people. All involved know what is needed. We come from different backgrounds and socio-economic divides. Including myself 4, are family and the others are people I have grown up with. Decisions will be made based on what is best for the group overall. The person in charge for a given project will be the person with the strongest skill set for that project. Disciplinary action is the one part we really haven’t touched on…yet. Clashing personalities aren’t too much of an issue as we know what to expect out of one another when it comes to views/emotions. Rules would probably be a group effort to be written, once again based on what is best for everyone involved.

  9. Good article Ken,
    That statement
    “some hard decisions may have to be made”
    Is the understatement,

  10. Hey Svzee

    With all due respect to everybody and no ill will intended. I view that as Mother Nature makin her rounds. You just happened to intervene in the process. A lotta people never learn except by doin. If that water made em sick, or the hysterical one ran around the yard screamin and wavin her arms and got electrocuted, or otherwise got hurt,if they didn’t die in the process they would learn not to repeat it……maybe. On the other hand sometimes that kind of behavior is do deeply ingrained only Mother Nature can change it. Sometimes people are just lucky. In my experience Lady Luck is an elusive companion. hahaha

    1. Wood56gate-Ha, don’t get me started, I wanted to keep on driving by because I don’t care for these family members, for a lot of different reasons, but my dh told me that we needed to help them-he’s definitely nicer than I am LOL. We ended up letting them use our house for showers/food/water for a couple days and I did it very grudgingly :p

  11. NRP, you’re welcome any time. Although since we’ve never met personally, we’ll have to come up with a pass phrase for the gate – so I know it’s you ;)

    1. Ken. If someone showed up at your gate yelling ” Ken, I got Mint Juleps and some toilet paper!!” Who would you think of first??

      1. Livin’ in the Woods


        Problem is Ken would probably ask what Brand the TP is… LOLOL

  12. Come on down, I would rather have this group at my door then some of my neighbors. My relatives live far from here and near big cities so it would be hard for them to get here.
    A while back 4 of us couples, who prepare, got together to talk about what to do in a SHTF situation. After spending hours coming up with a title for our group and a mission statement, we disbanded! The last straw was when one of the couples wanted to close off the main highway and stop everyone coming through and make them turn around. OK not a good group.
    One of my biggest worries are those you turn away. We have a real divisive couple here who likes nothing better than turning people against each other. Some of those stories, I didn’t realize I was so wild, just hope I am having fun! But in reality people have to know that if you come to our house for food, you will be put to work as there is plenty to go around- work that is!

    1. Thats my plan, anyone looking for food will promptly be given the speech, farm tour and list of expectations, of course i will be giving these wearing my kit and toting my best SBR and a couple handguns while constantly chatting with the overwatch, and she doesnt like people much and has a slightly itchy trigger finger, a bit worse every 28 days, not sure about that,,,, is why i try to stay on her good side

  13. NRP,
    You bring up some important and difficult issues. I’m not part of any organized group so I do not have to think about some of the issues you bring up. I see the OPSEC risk in a group – all it takes is one person to blow it for everyone. I’d like to believe those who are in formal groups (like BJH’s folks) are committed to their groups – and not blowing it for other members.

    But, I have thought a lot about some of the points you bring up. Friends know I love to cook – and therefore that I would always have food in the cupboard. I have in-laws (my folks have passed), we have dear, elderly friends a couple of blocks away who have no family on this side of the country. If I drew the line there, that’s 6 mouths, not 2. I’ve sinned enough in this life without meeting my maker and explaining why I allowed elderly people to starve to prolong my own life. But that’s me – some here might call me a sap, but that’s how I feel.

    I also realize at the new BOL that there will be good and bad. Homes are close together there, people will know who is home, and who is not. I want to hope this small community would pull together (if we make it up there in a SHTF) and based on how far it is to the nearest store (20-25 minute drive in good weather) I think others there would have at least some supplies on hand. But, there’s no way to know how that would go. Hope is really all it would be at that point – cannot be counted on, and most likely a problem.

    So, I’m not talking with others about what we have/do (OPSEC), but I am always listening and watching for clues as to who might be helpful and who would be a pain in the butt if things go wrong. I know I can’t possibly stock enough to take in all strays, but if some MSB alumni made it to my door, I would welcome them in – not that anyone is coming to CA anytime soon). I can already feel you guys shaking your heads at me, what can I say… I’d rather go down with some trusted folks around me than go down alone.

    1. So Cal Gal,

      “I’ve sinned enough in this life without meeting my maker and explaining why I allowed elderly people to starve to prolong my own life.”

      You are not alone in that sentiment. I take the feeding of 5,ooo with five loaves and two fish not to be a confirmation of God’s power, rather the affirmation of a little boy’s faith. My physical death is inevitable, it’s where I go from there that is my focus. If folks ridicule me for that, that’s OK, my actions don’t cost them a thing.

    2. So Cal Gal, I completely understand where you’re coming from. What I’m wrestling with though is would we take in my elderly, sick grandmother at the expense of taking food away from my 3 kids who range between 9-13 and depend completely on me and my husband? Or take food from me and my husband, which would weaken us and put the group at risk? Hard decisions for sure, hopefully this is all an exercise that will never actually play out in real life.
      I think the more we get put away the better I’ll feel and the more open I’ll be to expanding our group. Right now though we’re very limited on resources because we’re just starting.

      1. @ svzee…not to pry, but given her condition, it sounds like it would be best if you somehow formulated a plan to “extract” her to your BOL yourselves. Be it by bronco on hoof or bronco on mud tires, swoop her up and (not to sound like a vulture) clean her place out of anything that would be eatible/of use.

      2. Svzee

        I don’t like to stick my nose is somebody else’s bizness, but in all fairness, you did ask.

        In my family I am the elder, at 61, I am the end of the line. If I were old and especially infirm…….None of my family would leave me to fend for myself. They would give me their food and do without if that were the case. They would feel it is their duty to keep me safe. That question would never come up, that would not be a thought to any of them. We are a tight family. We would leave no man behind. How can I be so sure? hahaha…..I looked after my elders…….My kids and grandkids, are just like me.

        I don’t think you could live with yourself if you left granny behind.

        Perhaps you should give that some thought, or maybe it didn’t come across aptly. I am certainly capable of misunderstanding….With all due respect, ma’am

        1. I agree with both the above posts. I would make a plan to go get Granny!.. Look at her diet now. , try to help her get meds in a few days before due…to try to build her a supply. esp cardiac meds, fluid pills, critical things.
          Make sure she has a “quick grab bag” packed for a “possible hospital visit or a visit to your house.” …do a quick scan of her cubbords, to determine what she might have ,should ‘the pick-up plan’ need to be implimented. You will then know what the strengths are of her supplies. keep a couple of sturdy orange boxes, apple boxes to use for picking up supplies in a grab and go run.

          Some people who Will not help themselves, you will not be able to help them beyond a gallon of water and telling them where else to go… maybe a community place where they will feed people?

          You and your DH need to look at every person who may knock on your door and know how you will handle it. .. Together !…remind him you are not rich, and can’t support someone who will not try to help themselves. Your responsibility is to your immediate family (and I would add Granny.). I helped take care of my grandparents til the end, and both of my parents, sick/down at the same time. You will find the strength to do this .our childrenw will help, Granny ,if living alone, will be able to help with some food preps, peeling potatoes , making biscuits..etc She will pull her weight more so than the other couple you mentioned.

        2. Wood56gas-this thinking/deciding process has been difficult to say the least, but I realize that it’s also necessary. Without going into too much detail here, there’s a lot of dysfunction with my family (abuse, alcohol and drug addiction etc). As an adult I’ve made the decision to limit my interaction with many of them and that would not change in a long term SHTF situation. I realize that sounds harsh, but it is what it is.

      3. Svzee,
        These are tough decisions, and I agree that hopefully it will never come to this. I think you are smart to be mulling all of this over now, whatever decisions you come to. And yes, it does get easier to add one more person when you have more supplies on hand.

        If you do decide to add Granny to your household in an emergency you’ve received some good counseling here to help with that. You and your DH are off to a great start by making the decision to prepare, and if a SHTF does happen, you’ll at least have already given serious thought to what you may have to do, have to face, have to decide.

  14. There must be rules by which to govern the group. Guidelines of acceptable behavior. Along with the potential penalty for non-compliance. Everyone/ family in the group receives a copy, so that everyone knows exactly what is expected of him/her. There may need to be some type of brig/jail. A Mayflower Compact type of agreement may not be necessary initially, however perhaps in due season. That may be determined by what/who takes charge after the dust settles. A leader knows how to deal with the various types of individuals, how to motivate them, etc. Most people are followers. A leader understands that. The Army would not get much accomplished if it were comprised of A-type special operators only. Every job is important. A leader knows how to make sure that everyone in the group feels important. Anticipate conflict, and know how to deal with it. This topic needs to be thought through ahead of time. Very good thing to discuss.

    1. CR. you mention some type of brig or jail. I suggest “shunning” as a punishment, especially for minor infractions. No one would speak to the person. The person would eat their meals alone. The person would not be allowed to participate in any recreation. This would teach them that they need to respect the rules and that they need people contact.

    2. Most of us will be forced into uneasy alliances. Too many people hear ‘survival group’ and think ‘commune’. 99% of people who end up being “let into the group” will destroy said group, especially if they are a family unit. A family can easily justify “getting rid” of you.

  15. I am reading a book right now called “Extreme Ownership” written by navy seals with a business audience in mind. I think a lot of what people have said concerning this topic is covered clearly in this book. It is a book with wisdom for the battlefield, business office, home or even post collapse group interaction.

  16. Great article Ken with lots of food for thought.

    I have a few additional things to throw in for consideration taking into account where I presently work: People with mental illness (possible prevalence within any given community of 1 in 6 people out there including a few within my own family I grew up with.). The presence of mentally ill people going through stressful situation in which they are surrounded by people with guns, knives and other implements that can be used for self-harm or harming others.

    Mentally ill people do not handle change well at all. Some body mentioned addicts already, I would add to the avoid at all cost list: sociopaths, psychopaths, borderline personalities, drama queens (male or female). I get paid good money to deal with these folks right now. If SHTF? “Son, You are on your own.”

    Ken, I did not see Prima Donna’s mentioned on the list butt I did see a few posters mention somebody they know. ( I am pretty rude and generally refer to them simply as pricks.).

    I know within myself that I would be /tend to be a loner and if I did join a group, it would be a small group and for a limited duration. My first career in govt service was as a ranger/firefighter so I can work as part of a team butt I am used to working alone /going into the forest or desert by myself for days and weeks on end.

    Having seen many go into the business of rangering, The single biggest factor that weeded out the career people from the one-season wonders was the loneliness of the position. As for myself, I left the mountains and got a town job in order to meet my wife and settle down.

    Admission to a group: Spend a lot of years working alone, you can end up with a prickly personality. Be honest with your fellow group members after being honest about yourself, your own strengths and your own liabilities prior to joining any group. Whatever skills I may bring to the table, I tend not to suffer fools and I can be pretty abrupt with people. It does not make me popular at my place of work right now but they keep me around for emergencies.

    1. Good point regarding “prima donna” personality (just added it to the list).

      – a vain or undisciplined person who finds it difficult to work under direction or as part of a team

  17. Some historical context:

    The terms”Outlaw and Outcast” came from dark ages Northern Europe where people who violated the rules of the settlement were driven outside the gates and beyond the walls of a fortified town or settlement. ( banishment from the community.)

    As a ranger, I realized I did this voluntarily. Even with a “town job” I still find myself on the fringes of society these days..

    1. @ CaliRefugee…sometimes on the fringes is the safest/best place to be.

      1. That seems to be where i prefer to be, moreso the more time goes by,,, not real thrilled with general population

  18. Thank you CaliRefugee for historical context! 3rd time writing this comment, self editing is hard!

    From all I’ve seen and learned from my experiences as a soldier in the Balkans civil war/ethnic cleansing as well as Selco’s experience as a civilian there the default when SHTF is Tribalism (Us Vs Them), A successful Tribe has a strong Chain of Command with effective respectful feedback,

    The three main destroyers of a SHTF Tribe is ineffective leadership, disease and betrayal from with in by sociopaths (druggies, lazy prima donna’s, wanna be chiefs etc).

    Plan for success by planning how to prevent the destroyers.

    NH Michael

  19. Glad this topic was brought up. I have posted a few questions recently about this and We have done a lot of thinking and talking about this topic.
    We have been preparing for 10 people. All of them, excluding us 4 that are living with in the prepping zone, have no idea we are prepping for them. When I mentioned the other day to one of the picked, that such and such is going on, what do you have stored just in case. Their reply was, nothing we are not prepping, it will be what it will be. Then a few days later mentioned what the other member said to another member, and was told, because they are family you have to let them in. Which got me thinking that we may have some conflict because of these answers.
    So now with that said we have decided, if its a long term condition we will have most stay in the cabin ” to lookout position” . During the day we will be together working, in or around the main house. Everyone will be responsible for there own job and the boss of that job. That way everyone feels that they are pulling there own. No small children in our group.

    To be honest I don’t see anyone wanting to come here though. No matter how bad it gets. Why? Some know it alls. Some just don’t see anything bad happening. Most are bull headed. LOL Plus we live on a “working farm” , the working part always drives people away!!

    1. Jan I wish work would keep the useless and sociopaths away but sorry to say from my experiences Takers Will Be Takers. Cherish, protect and support your givers/makers and workers!!

      The FIRST True TEST of Leadership is the rational decisions on who gets what from your limited resources as well as division of labor to ensure the group (Tribe) succeeds.

      The Second True Test will be the honest assessment and ongoing reassessment of who to Trust with what. Keys to doors, weapons, access to medicines/food/water supplies. An example of a FAIL at Group/Tribe survival is someone too stupid or worthless to wash his/her hands after taking a dump and thus contaminates the Group/tribes food or water supplies.

      That Said, In my group I have two 90+year olds medicine/O2 depended Parents who we will take care of until they pass. They have no practical value and often fall asleep while your talking to them so no baby sitting, cooking, guard duty. Indeed they trust too much and would open the locked door to someone in trouble. I mention this so Others in this MSB group will look openly at all the members of their group and make realistic plans for the most critical 90 days of the SHTF event. Know your strengths and weaknesses.

      So how do you plan on dealing with the extra people that members of your group demand be allowed in? Somebody’s best friend AND their family? How can you protect the security of the group from Betrayal and Disease (the destroyer of most Tribes). How many strangers will you allow to sleep inside your home? Think these things through folks while we have time to plan. Personally there is a two tier housing plan in my tribe. Tents in the second security zone for those we are unsure of trustworthiness until they prove out their value or lack of it.

      NH Michael

      1. NH Michael, The only upside I found in planning for the elderly and you KNOW ahead of time that all of their needs will have to be anticipated and planned for in advance. I have been there, just not same longevity. Do the best you can and LOVE them. Don’t forget in giving daily care to remind them of your love for them. If you consider a 3-6 months currents needs ahead , get that done, then add any new items, ex.(incontinece supplies, adult wipes,tissues, cushions to prevent skin breakdown, recipes w/supplies to make own peri wash) Having back ups of monitoring/ medical devises that are not battery operated but manual.(B/p Kit,standard thermometer). and extra batteries and charging for those things that require electricity, like pulse oxy monitors& oxygen concentrators/C-paps will be critical. Back ups for medications , supplements for potassium,magnesium replacement critical for everyone..and can prevent the caregivers from needing care. For me this came home, when in providing the 24/7 care for others i backed off on own supplements. My result was a severe anemia.(.absorbtion and tolerance issues ) after 2 years I am still slowly building and not to normal yet.
        Very Interesting comment about tent… I had not considered that,(for our home, would be very limited how many would allow inside the door) and do not possess a true tent, but could construct makeshift shelter outside of main structure..Some might need to consider placing such a structure inside a sheltered area for adequate warmth….tho Have considered this as a possible for us in case we should have to leave our home for our alternate location. Sometimes it is not the homeowner who would be uncomfortable but the ones who would “bug out” having a separate set up Could alleviate tensions for everyone.

        1. Jus Saying We do love them even though they are more than useless. As my wife says quality of life, no bubble wrapping. Just back from hairdresser and lunch.

          Best part of caring for them is the amount of medical gear we have on hand. As a retired Combat Medic I am happy to have O2 concentraters for future sucking chest wounds and such. Usually a silver lining if you look for it eh?

          Plastic sheeting and access to woods will allow extra guests to build their own shelters. Maybe if I am lucky some of the useless will head elsewhere if forced to work on their own shelters and outhouse.

          NH Michael

  20. @ pieface, my fault for not specifying that the penalty be commensurate to the infraction.

  21. Early American Colonies used public shaming in the form of Stocks within the Public Square. I am all for Chain Gang concept. In every Community, there is the sh#t detail or dirty jobs that, in pre history, were done by convicts, malcontents and prima donnas under supervision of a Guard or Deputy.

    I though Joe Arpiao (Spelling) in Arizona had a good thing going until that practice was ruled cruel and inhumane by the ACLU. butt in a cash poor community, you effectively kill 2 birds with one stone.

    In current political speak: Sh#t detail and dirty jobs are referred to as: “Critical Infrastructure” did anybody else notice that?

  22. Bill Jenkins Hourse

    Well said Bill, good words of wisdom.

    Again the problem is finding those that are in the same mindset AND all the qualities you speak of, not an easy task for sure, but probably needed more so now that yesterday or ten years ago. The world is going crazier everyday.

    Still think it’s a good idea to head up to Ken’s, except he drives a Ford….. ughhhhhh :-)

    1. NRP
      It is only a truck, with the words FORD on the body. We can send Ken a blind fold for you. 😵

      1. NRP
        The emoji I select has the eyes going in circles, not the above.

      2. Antique Collector

        Problem is my truck will be the one running in 10 years…. HAHAHA

    2. Most of you wouldn’t like the cold winter! ;)

      That said, the more that work on the garden during “the season” (short as it may be), the more food we’ll have!

      1. Ken, dude

        wood stove, firewood, Long John’s, a good woman and a stash of Shine, any winter is warm 🤣

        Maybe a little grub now and then?

        Ohhhhh and dont forget the TP 😁

  23. I live in Small Town, U.S.A.

    Recently I did a small exercise :

    While walking the dog up and down just my street, I began to count the number of people that lived in each house. This was just the block I lived on and only the home facing the street-no back yard neighbors.

    I came up with the approx number of 50. I gave an educated guess on who might have any extra food stored by the amount of time I’ve seen them at the grocery store and what’s included in their shopping carts. Who had a workable garden and were they known to can anything from it.

    This was very dismal. Some retired, so a limited budget. Most with growing children, paycheck to paycheck. Three widows with needs. Only two (me one of them) full family size gardens that are enough for the house. One just to fiddle in and one scant tomato patch.

    Gun ownership was about half including Park Ranger, TBI, retired Sheriff, Mayor.

    50 people!! Just on my street. I figured ALL the food I’ve got stashed would be gone in one day when all those peeps come-a-knockin’.

    I don’t mind tellin’ ya, that is a terrifying scenario to contemplate. These are people I know and they are not prepared for anything except the football game on Sunday and a party on Friday night.

    The Park Ranger family and I are the only ones who put stuff up for the future. He is even running a survival camp every night this week out in the park.

    1. grandee

      Well from your calculations and observations that is about right for everything I read, 2 out of 50, 4%, only 4% of the people that live on your street, absolutely frightening.

      Kinda curious how many people are showing up for the “Survival Camp” the Park Ranger is running, and how many will make a decision to put up more stuff.

      1. There was 20 who signed up (the max spots available) with a waiting list to get in.
        They had to build their own lean-to and sleep in it all week, start their own fires, cook their own meals that they brought with them. But there was also a day of looking for local forest edibles.
        This is taking place in a TN state park and he is a state park ranger.

  24. It would be interestin to me to attend the survival camp, if it was close by, a time or two to inventory the people. I could gain some insight on who’s interested, how interested they are, what they are yappin about, I am an ardent listener, people are always yappin……..I might just see that other feller that seems to be payin extra attn to what’s goin on around him. I might keep my eye on him or her for a meetin or five, I might wanna talk to him…..he maybe could be of some help someday.

  25. The Survival camp will finish up this week end. They have to spend the nights out in the parks wooded areas.

    I ask jokingly if I could attend during the day but come home at night. I don’t sleep on the ground so very well anymore.

    Nope–had to do like the others. No favors for his neighbor :)

    They were to be learning different ways of starting fires today.

  26. To Grandee:

    It is good to hear of a Ranger teaching a survival camp. I know there is currently a great thirst for that knowledge. I am curious if this park ranger was a Federal, State or County employee. Most of these courses are either taught by interpreters or they are taught by volunteers within the employment pool.

    The large park I worked at was Federal and most of us rangers that worked in Visitor Protection. were from the city so many did not know how to fish,, hunt, track or shoot straight. I was fortunate to have been raised by a group of redneck local cops that dragged me along to retrieve birds, hunt deer, catch fish, and track both people and animals They also passed on to me their sense of humanity and sense of humor.

    When I worked as a ranger, I was also able to teach park visitors how to catch fish in my region. The water was so clear that ultralight line in 4 lb test was what I used and advocated. ( fish were relatively small too.) I taught a balance between catch and release and keeping a few for dinner. These were in the days before GoPro cameras and YouTube were invented.

    This is something I still do on occasion to teach the young generation as many parents these days do not know either. It is very satisfying to see a 12 year old girl catch a 5 lb largemouth bass with her Dad telling me : “This is her first fish”. This only happened once that I recall.

    Your local Parks Dept will probably have a need for volunteers and for some of us, we still have a lot of fun teaching and running these classes. The only cautionary note I have is: Remember you are teaching very powerful tools to people: In teaching these classes, you may be educating tomorrow’s poachers or game wasters. ( that is where my tracking skills came in.).

  27. To Grandee;

    The composition of my neighborhood is roughly 60/40. 60% being retired folks and 40% being young families. Most of the houses around me are new construction because I moved and purchased in the darkest year of the Great Recession ( 2009 ) The homes around me are small with stick construction so if the families get too big, they usually relocate to a place where the homes are bigger.

    Us working folks are a good mix of LEO’s, fire fighters, utility workers and tradesmen, we have a few nurses and paramedics sprinkled in here and just about every retired person here has at least 1 gun per household. Many of the retirees shoot at the local gun club where I am also a member.

    Since I have relocated, I have taught many of my coworkers and neighbors how to reload their rounds for rifle and pistol. For those that really get into it, I taught those few how to cast their own bullets and sort them for quality and consistency. This was during the Great Ammo Shortage of 2012.

    I am out in my community quite a bit on my days off so I also notice that more people are becoming interested in skill development and obtaining supplies for times of shortage. ( especially as compared to 10 years ago.). I do not view this as a bad thing.

    A note on Learning to work together by Navy SEALS? Most of those people are so Alpha that a game of checkers can turn violent. ( hyper-competative, dominant personalities.) I have also met quite a few SWAT cops that are the same way. I have met quite a few while loading them onboard my ambulance on a STRYKER stretcher. They are angry and cussing me out while strapped to a backboard. ( be nice to me. I have access to the pain medications.) I am not sure if I want to spend a lot of time in a cabin or hunting blind with either one.

    Those that have something to prove talk a lot. Those of us that have been there and done that do not talk a lot. A hunting blind is not the place to talk at all.

    1. CaliRefugee,
      Building relationships locally is a huge deal. You find out quick who the trouble makers are because folks will let you know. You see the slackers and the producers.
      I have spent the last year building relationships in my local area. Not always easy.
      I,like you help others . It’s a great way to gather Intel as well. It’s never about making money. It’s about forging friendships and making good contacts. Takes time but it is worth it.
      Out of one of these friendships I was gifted a very cool rifle this last Monday. I will post about it tomorrow.
      I believe if you are in an area where neighbors are close its mandatory to get out there and meet them. Better to know what you are up against now rather than later…

      1. In a group you must have rules. They are written down too. Has to be that way so there is no confusion. Parents are held responsible for their kids behavior as well (my Grandkids exceptions.)
        Members know who they can bring. No one else is allowed. My Security Officer will be the enforcer not me. ( his rules btw.)
        Members know already what will happen.
        There maybe exceptions but they will be few to none.
        Has to be that way…
        Btw, people with bad attitudes(general population/sheep) will find themselves very dead very fast. I won’t put up with it and the other groups I deal with are the same. Entitled bad attitude people will have to work very hard not to assume room temperature when the bottom falls out.
        Their mouths are gonna write checks their ass won’t be able to cash…
        Ditches will be full of them…

        1. Bill Jenkins Horse (have to google that for the reference) While I tend to agree with your thoughts the BIG Issue from my POV is when SHTF actually happens. I fear a slow nasty series of events and bad decisions by political types will make the event a prolonged disaster. Some how a current South American Country springs to mind……

          That said I am trying to see how to avoid spending a SHTF event disarmed and perhaps in jail for murder.

          Ideas folks? Trigger Events? I’ve often thought if the power went out, my cell phone was dead, internet gone, no radios, car will not run EMP would be pretty straight forward but what if some less clear event with the probability that Police will arrest us for assault or murder?

          Hoping for thoughtful replies.

          NH Michael

        2. @ NH Michael…CME event could create the same situation. Explosion at local substation (if large enough high voltage transformers blew together) could create localized emp event hitting and downing close cell/comm towers but you would notice that with a car that still worked.
          Hit the ham bands and perch up high with some good binocs and watch everyone else’s reaction. Gauge your response from what you see and hear.
          Another telltale trigger sign would be the rain of aircraft/jets.😟

        3. NH Michael, no one knows for sure the how, when or how bad future disasters. Some scenarios may start out looking to be an end of world event, yet prove to be relatively short lived. Another possibility might be a slow roll into chaos with a long, long period of WROL.
          My personal belief, and what will temper my actions in any case, is I won’t take a life that is not an eminent threat (death or bodily harm) to myself or another innocent. Thieves and trespassers will receive a warning and a chance to retreat. An exception to this rule would be someone or a group that had already shown themselves to a threat by prior bad behavior.
          These are my thoughts, based on my own code of morality and ethics and I will try to adhere to them if at all possible. Besides, I’m basically lazy,and someone has to bury those bodies if their close to your house.

        4. NH MICHAEL,
          If you’re referring to my name I will explain…condensed version.
          Bill was a mentor and good friend. We went fishing and had walked in quite away from the truck. I twisted my ankle good at the fishing hole. He helped me with a walking stick and such.
          He said to me:” you know if you were my horse I would have to shoot you.”
          It’s a homage to a good man who has been gone awhile and I really miss his friendship and his counsel. ..
          On the other…
          That is questions you need to ask yourself. How bad does it have to get for me to act? Can I really shoot someone who is a threat to me and my family?

          Triggers are different for each circumstance. Work all these scenarios in your head. I suggest you write down your thoughts so you can revisit them. Refine and adjust your responses. Then make sure you get good training for weapons. Then practice and train. I train EVERYDAY in some capacity.
          That’s why relationships are important outside your own circle. You need the Intel so you can make informed rational decisions.
          The more you prepare and train the less stress you will have. In stressful situations you will fall back on your training. But if you have never trained or thought situations through you are winging it. Not a good idea and outcome will be uncertain.
          Others will chime in…just a few thoughts from me on the fly…

  28. Dennis,
    Jon and Nailbanger brought up Valhalla so maybe viking style funeral pyres for all those misguided pilgrims we will have to deal with…

  29. Thanks for the comments. BTW the viking funeral pyre was to HONOR Heroes. When I was a teen I gave my old beagle a funeral pyre and you cannot believe how much firewood that took. I am not sure I want to honor a welfare rat with that much good firewood. A good hot compost pile will do just as well and I get some gardening value for my effort. Same effect with Human manure processing.

    Direct threats to me and mine (platoon) I have dealt with but it is my nightmare to have some scared hungry little kids stealing from my tribe. Not so clear cut if a mortal threat but could be.

    Again Direct threats are fairly easy but you never forget those you’ve killed. It’s the lesser situations where some form of Law Enforcement is still around. To be disarmed and in jail is not good for survival when things get even worse.

    Avoidance of trouble is my preferred choice. Thus to go dark to avoid guiding misguided pilgrims to my place Via Noisy Generators and LIGHT. Slow cookers/solar cookers/retained heat bags to reduce cooking smells. Establishment of security zones to better reduce accidental visits and guide my visitors to my choice of contact. Co Opt useful neighbors by being a useful source of safe water, recharging batteries, production of colloidal silver, emergency medical treatment/dental care, production of bleach (salt water and 24 volts DC) extra seeds, corn and beans available for WORK and trade. Even a little kid can collect firewood for a meal.

    I do not want to fail critical leadership tasks, thus I read and ask questions of this group.

    NH Michael who prays for a peaceful nights sleep

  30. We will have 23-25 (includes the 3-4 pets ) at my house, I come from a large family and my DH is one of 6 in his family as well. I have been wrestling with this issue for a long time. One sister and her family will be more than welcome but the other I’m not sure. As much as I love my sister, she’s a real *itch. She loves to foment trouble with her half truths and innuendos all the while sitting there looking so innocent. I don’t know if I can deal with that in a SHTF situation.So do I save one but not the other or do I think I have the fortitude to take her in. I guess only time will tell.
    My 2nd brother has assured me he is taking care of the other two sibs by him and their families, so I don’t have to worry about them. All three are retired military. The brother between us is an idjit but he follows orders well and the brother prepping is bigger than him LOL
    My DH has three unmarried siblings and a married sibling that will be here with his family. The only wild card is my BIL’s son in law, who’s a real jerk.
    As for neighbors , there are only two that I would trust, the rest are either yuppies with brat puppies or dinks , double income no kids, that I wouldn’t trust as far as I could throw my house.
    They do not know what we are doing. In fact they think I only have enough food in the house for a week, most of them shop only for the week and it is usually a lot of garbage and microwave stuff.If I meet them at the store and have a bit more than usual I say DIL asked me to pick stuff up because grandkids are sick. You should see their eyes glaze over when I prattle about the grands.

    1. grannyo
      Best thing I have ever heard, talking about a subject that turns off the yuppies listening aka their ears.
      Best of luck with the sister that is a pain in the derriere, believe we all have one in our families.

      1. Antique
        Thanks , I think my DH would take care of her before it got too bad LOL. She has skills I am sadly lacking in (long story), so we will need her and my other sister as well. Even though we may fuss at each other, let anybody else try anything and we always come together so I know she’ll have my back, then we can get back to fussing at each other HAHAHAHA.
        Well heard from my niece, it took them 6 hours to drive the 4hours due to traffic and a couple of accidents they passed on the way home but they ARE safely home. Now starts the hard stuff there, keeping him safe and trying to get into a good routine with the doctors appts , feedings etc.

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