Urbanites Moving to Rural Paradise Ruining It for the Natives

158 Comments

1. I agree with all you have said, Ken. The exception would be that suburban prepper who is conservative, patriotic, Christian and willing to assimilate (like me!). Living in a suburb of 250,000 of Los Angeles is not desirable to me at all, but circumstances sometimes dictate, you know. You can pray for all of us California preppers who might be stuck here for now.

   1. I hear ya Burt, same here, except not anywhere near the 250,000 mark.

      Counting down until we’re able to flee what CA has become. Does kind of feel like we’re “behind enemy lines” sometimes.

   2. There are definitely exceptions! For years I too lived and worked in a very high population density region and I never assimilated to the way of life and the predominant attitudes within the region.

   3. Just have a good Bugout plan and leave early. You can make it work.

      1. Hey Burt, I’m one of the CA preppers that is looking to flee this circus! I’m in one of the suburbs of Sac and can not wait to get the H— out of here! But, like you said, circumstances dictate that I stay here for the job. I’m in a very specific job field that doesn’t have opportunities in rural areas.

         My DW and I just made the first payment on 15 acres in north ID. Our mindset is to assimilate to the region, be a benefit to our new neighbors, and mind our own effing business. We can’t stand the liberal ideals of the people who keep getting elected in the most stupidest state in the US, the restrictive gun laws are so bad that now you need a background check to buy ammo!!!

         I have 2 – 5 years left at this job… but every spare day of vacation time will be used on preparing those 15 acres for our arrival!

         Good luck to you, and every other like-minded person on this site.

2. SAME HERE IN FLA THEY MOVE DOWN AND VOTE FOR PEOPLE WE CANT STAND

3. City people tend to be herd animals–they want lots of people around even when complaining about the crush. They want everything close–their movie theaters, their churches, their stores, all preferably within walking distance (even when they choose not to walk). They think the herd is safety and get very nervous (and combative) when the herd is no longer there.

   Ironically, these are the same people who think the world is overpopulated and want 9/10ths of the population to go away. They’re also the people who think their food magically arrives on the grocery store shelves and have no problem whatsoever with shrinking farmlands as long as they can buy the new mcmansion.

4. Grumble Grumble
   Idaho saw over a 2% population increase on the last census – mainly from Cali. But not as much as Texas or Florida in numbers of migrants. The problem is that, people cashing out on the west coast have a lot of money to buy the most pristine properties along lakes, streams, and nice mountain valleys – not for production but for aesthetics.

   1. If they are from hot and sunny California at least you know they will be headed south for the winter.
      In my area, if they were really disliked they would return in the spring to a pile of ashes.
      Those are the ones I will be dealing with when the “big” problem starts.

      1. Skeezix,
         You get a lot of lightning caused fires up your way, don’tcha? heh heh.

   2. hermit us:
      I know exactly what you mean, as I live in North Idaho. A large share of the land that I used in the past for fishing, hunting, hiking, and just recreation in general, has been bought up. And normally, the first thing that happens is that it gets posted. I have talked to quite a few of the out-of state people that bought and moved here, and the first thing most of them do is get hostile. They say it’s now their property, and they don’t want anyone on it. Go ahead and try to tell them your not going to damage it or do anything bad. You might as well talk to the trees. They seem to have this “elite-ist” attitude. I hope we have another winter with 5 feet of snow and -20 below, and their roof caves in. Teach them a lesson.

      1. Yes, another snowmagedon like two years ago would really cull the heard of sunshine lovers.

         1. BBC & S. Lynn
            If you are going for the gusto…better make it a good wind chill with that snow.
            As in what hit MT back in the middle 1980’s a good -70 wind chill roads frozen like an ice skating rink.

   3. hermit us, BigBadCat,

      Interesting conversation, but it is a bit puzzling to me. I’ve lived rural all my life, except for my first nine years of childhood when we lived in a town of less than 2,000. I’ve never encountered folks who felt it was ok to use other folks property for recreation without their approval. I have known many property owners who didn’t care who hunted and fished on their property, but knew that was subject to change if the property changed hands. Where I now live, back when we purchased land here, almost 50 years ago, probably 60-70% of the area was old homestead land where the original owners had run hardscrabble farms carved out of the rugged terrain, raised a family, then left after the thin soil wore out and wouldn’t produce anymore. The land lay fallow and unoccupied for years and the heirs had no interest in it. Those who remained on their land treated it as their own for hunting and fishing. Slowly, parcels were bought up by outsiders. My family purchased 320 acres for recreational use and as an investment. We didn’t post the land, and we became friends with the native land owners and, like them, hunted and fished where ever we wanted. As more and more parcels were sold and more “outsiders” started hitting the woods, locals suddenly didn’t want these people trespassing on their land, but wanted to continue to use other folks property. In other words, what was good for the goose wasn’t good for the gander. Was told by a neighbor, after I retired and built my home, that he no longer allowed anyone but his family to hunt his property, “just so I would know”, only to have him walk through my deer stand on my property, a few days later with his rifle. I asked if this meant it was ok for me to hunt his land like was done in the past, and of course, he said no. We are about the same age and had been part-time neighbors for close to fifty years and our families had broke bread together numerous times.

      I guess what I’m asking, do y’all have large enough parcels of land to support other hunters/fishermen and if so, do you allow anyone and everyone use of your land without your permission? Or like some of the my neighbors, is it a one way street? By the way, I’ve never refused someone who asked to hunt my land, unless I already had folks out hunting.

      Not being argumentative, just curious about your views on property rights.

      1. Dennis
         I am talking about a forested area where my neighbors that are responsible and respectful are welcome to walk across my property, hunt in season, fish the stream at the back As they walk by, they wave or stop to chat and I know they are watching out for all our properties. I know that if I said no trespassing that this wish would be honored but to draw hard and fast lines in the bush seems a bit extreme. So, yes you are correct that people can excersize their right to block access to private forest property. But, I know that when the SHTF, these people that draw the strict lines will also face the same lack of interaction when they need help. Strangers do not get the same right of access and that is where a common front by the landowners pays off.

      2. Dennis:
         I never said that I felt it was O.K. to use other peoples land without their permission. When I said I talked to quite a few, I meant it was to get permission to go on their land, and that’s when they got hostile about it instead of being civil. I will surely remember them if the shoe is ever on the other foot.

         1. BBC
            Let them build high chain link fences in the bush – but as you say,what goes around, comes around.

         2. In another life I too lived on some acreage. So understand the dilemma. Asking to pass through someone’s property is about simple RESPECT which is quickly leaving humanity behind. Besides there might be some younger folks hunting or playing on their land and should be able to feel safe.

      3. hermit us, BigBadCat,

         Like I said, my intent was not to be argumentative. So many folks on blog sites such as this (I was tempted to say “ours”, but it is Ken’s site) speak of how fiercely they will defend their property post shtf. I was just curious about pre-shtf attitudes possibly being different when it comes to property rights and trespass. I have three families that recently bought properties adjoining mine. These are families who live urban, are professionals, and good people. They bought their property for recreational use, but like many I’ve seen on these pages, also see this as their bug-out location. You would be surprised how many folks are doing this. All three families have bonded with me, the youngest family has adopted me as a father figure and mentor to them and their children. They encourage me to roam their land and protect it in their absence. They bring me gifts all the time as thanks. They know not to bring eggs when the come to spend time on their land as I always fill that need. Last time they were up, right before Christmas, they hit a stand pipe frost free water faucet with a lawn mower while mulching leaves. They came asking for help, and I had the parts and tools on hand to fix the problem, and he learned a little about plumbing repair in the process. We have never spoke of mutual assistance after shtf, even though we’ve spoke about the possible coming of a need to seek shelter from cities. I have no doubt assistance will be a two way street should that scenario present itself. I can furnish the experience and know how, this young family can furnish the vigor and strong backs. I guess I’m lucky to have such “outsiders” for neighbors.

         1. Dennis
            BBC and myself living in north Idaho probably see things a little different than other parts of the country. Perhaps we are naive in thinking that freedoms, ethics, morals, respect, … for others and their property goes without saying. As more liberal people invade this State, we may change our thinking. I can only speak for myself as a more private person but one who is trusted and respected in our community – so threats of trespass charges never crossed my mind – access was always allowed and assumed permitted.

         2. hermit us,

            Again, not to come across as argumentative, but for sake of the discussion, isn’t Ruby Ridge in northern Idaho? (for the record, I was sympathetic with the Weaver family’s plight). Not knowing the relationship they had with others in the area prior to the incident as to ingress on their property, I have to wonder if they had the same views as yours.

            I completely understand your position on this topic and understand your reasons, but at the same time, I also understand those who choose not to allow trespassing and respect their decision.

            I apologize to you and BigBadCat for wearing out the topic. I know attitudes differ widely on the subject. Y’all have a good night, I’m bedding down.

         3. Dennis and AC
            Every morning we have a neighbor and his wife that walk their two dogs on a loop trail that crosses my property – if they had to ask for permission each time it would drive everyone crazy. I also have keys to four houses/properties in our area and check them from time to time if they are okay when away or at home. I say again, we live in a forested area where perimeter alarms are limited to our immediate home site – the road access to this area is well observed by all that live in the area, so a stranger can hardly get in behind our properties. If we have to start patrolling the mountain side all the time we might as well give up on freedom and lock ourselves in our homes while peeking out to see if some person might walk by – what then, shoot????

         4. Shoot? No, of course not. Not my thoughts at all. A stranger with no ties to the community/area prowling around, I would confront. His own actions in response to being asked why he was there would dictate whether the situation escalated.
            Ignore them? Only if I already know who they are and their intentions.

         5. hermit us
            Let me further explain, I am speaking about a 100+ acre ranch, that is where I grew up…trespassing became a way of life for low life’s filtering into that area. My dad had cattle on the ranch, and it was not uncommon practice to have those low life’s cut the fence so they could ride their motorcycles on the back section of the place. After catching one, he simply told the person the next time anyone who cared about his scumbag life would wonder what happened to him. You see dad had a backhoe & 100+ acres in which that motorcycle would find a nice resting place. He was not joking when he told him what he would do.
            It eliminated the pot growers who were hiding it on the backside of the property & guess what no more cut fences or weed.

            Your situation is different you have a “walking trail”, you know who these people are. Yet there are those who believe that YOUR property is THEIRS in which do as they see fit. Once you let them get away with one in fraction, you are bound to have a constant thorn in your side regarding property rights. I am not trying to start an argument but have seen how outlanders think & behave.

         6. AC
            I have always talked about forest lands, not worked land. Try to police a 100 acre parcel of forest everyday. We have other neighbors that come through to go to the stream in the back to fish back down to their place. There are no fences in the bush, so even I do not know exactly what property I’m on.
            I understand that if and when dirtbag intruders start to invade our area, security and access restrictions will have to be increased. As most people around here hunt, it has been a very polite society – but when challenged, it could be dangerous for criminal types. .

         7. hermit us
            Alright now I have the picture and understand your area. It has been 30 years since we lived in the northern regions of the states(Montana for us).

      4. Dennis
         May I step in to answer this question, or should say the way we were raised concerning Private Property and Trespassing.
         One did not go on to anyone’s land without 1) asking permission 2) explaining why you would like access 3) Never assume permission to cross a piece of land was card blanch, you had to acquire permission for each crossing.
         It is way to show respect for the land owners property. I have the same open access but I do not cross without asking them each time. I respect them & I want respect in return so manners are a must when dealing with neighbors.

5. Isn’t it ironic?

   These people ruin their own cities to the point where even they cannot put up with it all anymore so then they move out into the country and try to instill the very same attitudes, laws, and policies that turned their “urban paradise” into the cesspool they could no longer put up with!

   People moving out of the cities and suburbs to more rural areas is something that has been going on for a long time. The difference between the urban and rural cultures has been used to make a few “fish out of water” type movies. The problem, imho, is that the urban culture has become so radical, so much more out of touch with real life that when these urbanites do move to rural areas their ‘normal” behavior comes across as very offensive. They have lost touch with how real life really works out here in what they like to derisively call Fly Over Country. A few generations ago, many urban and suburban people were not so removed from the farm as to have forgotten how rural life works. Now, many of these folks invading the countryside (yes, I said invading) have little to no concept as to how life works out here or why it works this way.

   They simply know that their urban paradise is no longer a paradise for them. Too many micromanaging laws, codes, and rules. Taxes that are too high for them to sufficiently retire, too much crime, etc. So they trek out to the countryside. Then the problems begin. Usually it begins with Culture Clash (as opposed to Culture Club) ;)

   They don’t respect boundaries (read- property lines!). The sight of a No Trespassing sign offends them. We have a wonderful pond. They want to fish in it. They get upset when we say No. Some of them feel entitled to fish in our pond and figure we can’t see it from the house so they just walk up and do what they want to do. After all, in their eyes it really isn’t “our” pond but something that everyone should be able to enjoy.

   They’re upset when the same services that are available in the cities and suburbs are not available here or cost an extra fee. In the suburbs I lived in, the city sent a big truck around that would pick up whatever was put out on the curb but was too big for the regular garbage truck to handle such as cut up trees, old furniture, construction/remodeling waste, etc. Out here, you have to haul it to the dump yourself or burn it.

   Out here, choices at the grocery store are more limited. There are almost no businesses that are open 24/7. One must thing ahead and prepare accordingly. That is a foreign concept to many of them.

   Rural smells and sounds are unfamiliar and sometimes they take umbridge with them. Crowing roosters in the wee hours of the morning, the odor of manure being spread on a field. The smell of your neighbor 1/2 a mile up the road burning trash and debris. The almost daily sound of gunfire that is not indicative of a crime being committed, but rather recreational shooting, sighting in before hunting season, and hunting.

   Some of them display an attitude of false superiority, viewing their rural neighbors as uneducated rubes whom they must now manage and educate. They tell us that we are living “wrong” or substandardly and then are amazed when we take offense.

   Instead of realizing that life works differently out here, they get upset and try to force the very laws, codes, and rules that ruined their “paradise” upon us.

   To me, it’s very similar to people to immigrate to the United States but upon gaining entry want to recreate the very country and conditions they just fled! Why in the world would anyone bring with them the very things they fled from???

   1. Because it’s comforting and familiar in a culture that is totally foreign.

      Most people don’t even realize WHY they do what they do. It’s below the level of conscious thought. The uneducated must be educated, the land must be turned into condos and strip malls, the rules must be tightened because that’s the environment where they’re most comfortable. I can tell you for certain that most people from Cali (to pick one not quite at random) don’t move out with the INTENT of fixing the countryside. They just get out there into the real world, realize subconsciously that they’re outside of their territory without the support of their herd, fight or flight kicks in and they choose fight.

      I did have a friend who moved to a very rural area who said she was going to become a teacher there because they would trust her as an educated person and she could teach them how they were wrong. But most don’t PLAN that kind of thing. It just happens.

      1. Lauren,
         I’ve experienced the same attitude from more than a few teachers. Not all, of course, but way more than one would think. School teachers live in an environment that places them in positions of authority and righteousness. Most times they are dealing with younger people, all day long. When they then deal with other “adults” who may not see the world as they do, it creates problems. No one should be allowed to challenge them. They do have that liberal education. I’m guessing here but, 75% or higher have a democrat / liberal mindset. They had to have that mindset in order to make it through college, in their chosen field. Liberal professors demand that of their students.

         Sadly, these teachers cannot help but transfer their mindset on to their students. A self perpetuating and self congratulatory circle of never-ending liberalism. I see it in my grandchildren. It is never a bad thing to listen to all sides of an issue. Unfortunately, many teachers are only comfortable with presenting their view, the liberal view, the RIGHT view.

         Before everyone jumps on me, please note I mentioned “not all teachers.” I’ve just seen it too many times for it not to be true.

         1. The irony there was that she was going to go to school to BE a teacher (she wasn’t one at the time and still isn’t) so that she would be TRUSTED by the uneducated parents because of her education. They would naturally accept her (liberal) ideas and leadership because of their respect for her education. She saw absolutely nothing wrong with that attitude.

         2. Lauren,
            I would not be pleased to learn, my new neighbor was a school teacher. I just don’t like the odds of them being “good folks.” Thankfully, there are no new neighbors in my area. To think that most families ship their youngsters off to be taught/indoctrinated without really considering the consequences. I don’t know the answer, but I recognize the problem.

         3. Education is nothing more than 7 hours a day of programming kids with biased information and a specific thought process. Conservatives really as a whole are foolish and literally killing themselves by worshipping the police state, military industrial complex and education. If conservatives said no to cops enforcing liberal laws (that allows cops to terrorize people not wearing a seat belt, having “drugs”, not baking a cake for a gay wedding, not paying ransom to the government in the form of taxes taken by threat of force) we wouldn’t have this system. They can’t force 40% of the population to go along if the 40% say no. But conservatives tend to worship cops just doing their jobs when their jobs is to enforce often liberal and neo conservative (slightly less liberal but more focused on infringing on social freedoms) laws. Same with teachers. Conservatives should pull out their kids from schools and say no we want something else.

         4. John hunter;
            Yeah those stupid Seat Belt Laws are just all out wrong, and nobody should wear one…. right?
            I think we need 100% Communism in this Country, Who’s with me?????
            And THANK COP I got that cross hanging on my wall in the shape of a Badge I worship.
            Ughhhhh

         5. Did someone forget that “cops” do not write or enact the laws that they are saddled with to enforce? I have heard some say they will not enforce laws that are unconstitutional.

         6. hermit us;
            As a reminder, three people (of many) that you should be very considerate of.
            1. The LEO that pulled you over, remember he has a shit job.
            2. The Divorce Lawyer that represents your soon-to-be ex-wife, he works for a shit person.
            3. Your proctologist. he also has a shitty job… HAHAHA
            Post soon to be deleted by Ken :-) :-)

         7. This person has been here before bashing cops in general. That subject is off-topic so I hope he stops.

         8. Laws have no meaning if cops decide not to enforce them. It’s not the politician with a pen who is most responsible for them but a cop with a badge who will literally use physical force to put them into being. Anyone can have sick thoughts (liberal and neo con politicians) but the guy carrying them out is most directly responsible.

            Stop with the nonsense that cops won’t enforce unconstitutional laws. 90% of laws today violate the constitution and even the constitution violates the fundamental principles of freedom in the bill of rights. Joke about seat belt laws but cops pulling people over by threat of deadly force because people make voluntary and consensual decisions for their own bodies not to wear seat belts is why we have the mess we have: government forcing individuals to follow orders they want nothing to do with and which violates their fundamental freedoms to their body and property.

            Neo cons mean well but they are their own worst enemy, not the liberals. Liberals want to control your every action and do so through laws. Neo cons will literally support a cop enforcing a law that says conservatives are criminals for practicing free speech, publically supporting Christianity, reading the Bible out loud, not baking cakes for gay weddings and yes not wearing seat belts, or drinking soda, or eating fatty food. People literally have been arrested in England for publically reading passages of the Bible on out loud because it was a “hate crime”. Cops are the problem.

         9. John Hunterr;
            Go find a different drum to pound.

6. Definitely two different people groups or cultures .City populations are growing, that’s where most of the jobs seem to be , also more crime , more regulatory controls and less privacy. We live in a rural area and we see more people of retirement age moving to our area . We do not have many good paying jobs available, so the young folks grow up and leave for a larger population city .We have had some “big city” people get hired for city and county jobs and most do not fit into the rural culture and leave.
   On the matter of voting , our US senators, governor,most statewide jobs and state initiatives are decided by the major city populations. We do not have enough votes to matter. It is hardly worth our time voting. Looking at the voter fraud in our state and around the country it is only worth voting for local positions .

7. Ken
   I can pretty much bet your “lovely Connected neighbors” were told of the ATV/snowmobile use and choose to purchase the home anyway.
   Unfortunately they will cause all hate and discontent until they get their way and the use of the road will stop.
   I(we) have dealt with these types of urbanite pricks before…..
   Fight the good fight

8. Same thing being seen in North and South Carolina. They sell a 100 foot by 100 foot square of land, with a three story home, then move here. They now have the money to buy 20-50 acres and still have enough money for a double wide trailer or build a modest home. It used to be that a four strand cattle fence and strategically placed “No Trespassing” signs was sufficient. Now we have to run random patrols ( armed of course) and call the Sheriff or Game warden(DNR) more times than we have had to in the past 30 years. One girl was caught on the creek “panning for gold.” Others have been caught looking for mushrooms that grow on cow manure. Hunters, fisherman (and women) and birdwatchers, and would be pot growers round out the list. Total lack of respect.

   1. Not to mention stealing and abusing the Ginseng.

9. WOW !
   That comment about crowing Roosters really hit home.
   I moved out here 41 years ago, ‘to get away from it all’.
   Now, the 1st thing new arrivers complain about is the early morning crowing of the local Roosters. One man even had the audacity to say to me “What are you going to do about about your Roosters ? I don’t like to be wakened that early in the morning.”
   I gave it back to him with both barrels ! I can’t print what I told him !
   How to meet your new neighbors !

   1. Amazing how oblivious some people are. We get a lot of complaints about the smelly cows. That smell is money.

      I love taking reckless drivers calls against farmers who are moving tractors and equipment. The out of State drivers do not realize the farm equipment has the right to use the road…

      1. Keeper, I agree with the smell of money! I do not by fertilizer for my gardens, instead I feed my animals the best feed and minerals and then recycle to the gardens, same way Granny did.

   2. WOW, that reminds me of the morning I awoke in the house I bought 27 years ago. Moved from city to rural in April. About 6:00 o’clock AM on that fist morning here, I heard my neighbor’s roosters crowing, opened my eyes and thought to my self . . . “I made it”.
      Although there has been a few changes, so far its still a great place to live. (minus the taxes !)

10. There are irreconcilable differences that exist between the different groups of people living in the disunited states of America. The way forward is to just declare independence and split into two or more countries. I have no problem with liberals living they way they want. I just want to be left alone and be with people who are like me both in look and mind. We’d all be happier being amongst our own.

    1. Libs are not inclined to leave be. I have relatives who insist that they are virtue, I am otherwise–conservative. I must agree or else. The condescension makes it hard to keep my mouth shut. I let fly only when they get way out of line. As the family genealogist it is ongoing.

11. I remember seeing a conversation once (might have been here?) about someone who put up a big sign on their property where it could be seen from the road. Something along the lines of “If you are considering buying property here, be aware that we have animals. Animals stink, make loud noises and have sex in public. If this makes you uncomfortable, you may want to buy somewhere else.”

    1. Lauren
       I have that saved somewhere to share with the group, it will take a little time to locate it but worth putting it up on the road ways for any future land buyers….rowl

12. Rural folks should stop welcoming the city crowd and maybe they will stay away. I live in the north GA mountains and in town we get our fair share of the Atlanta crowd. They come up to buy apples and pumpkins in the fall, hike the AT, rent a cabin and decide to buy a vacation house “to get away from it all”. Then they immediately start complaining to the county commissioners to have the roads paved, the smell coming from the farms, why there aren’t street lights or sidewalks, blah, blah, blah. They want to create here what they say they are trying to get away from.

    I do not harrass them but I don’t go out of my way to help or make them feel welcome.
    If I’m in town and they ask me for directions, which is constant since there are places with no cell service and according to them everyone up here is related and it’s our job to help them find _______, I send then to the opposite side of the county on the worst roads possible. Hopefully this wasted half their day and they leave town with a bitter taste and won’t comeback.

    Several miles down the road from me, an Atlanta family bought a house and stopped when I was down at the mailbox to tell me “were your new neighbors”. Looking at the SUV they were driving (with Cobb County tags) and the way they were dressed it looked they had just stepped out of an LL Bean commercial. I just stared at them for a minute without saying anything and turned and walked back up the mountain to my house in hopes they got the mesage to stay away and don’t come bothering me if they get stuck in the snow, the power is out, their dog runs off or their well freezes.

    We live up here to be away from suburban society, urban BS and I am not going to welcome, assist or encourage anyone that threatens our way of life. Stay in the city and leave us alone.

13. Ken,

    Not to be adversarial, but I have some questions and thoughts about your comment on the “private road” use by snowmobiles.

    In my retirement state there are several definitions of “roads”. Public roads are taxpayer funded and of course, open to public use. Private roads are roads that are just that, private. Normally, these are right of ways that were purchased by landlocked land owners from landowners whose property surrounded their land. These roads belong to the ones who paid for this access and are not open to the public. These roads can be gated. Then there are what are called “permission roads”. These are the roads that cause heartburn to private land owners in my area.

    “Permission roads” can come about by a property owner knowingly allowing people to cross their property to access a landlocked property without them having to purchase a right of way. The state laws state if that road is used for a seven year period of time, it becomes a “permission road” and the land owner whose property it crosses can no longer deny permission to anyone wishing to use that road.

    Problem with this law in this state, many of the property owners were absentee land owners and these roads were cut by recreational users without the property owners permission or knowledge. The law doesn’t require the user to prove he ever had permission, only that the road had been used for at least seven years without being challenged by the land owner.

    Like you, I live in a scenic area. I built my home where one of the most beautiful views in this area is off my front porch. A “permission road” runs close by and across a portion of my property. While I’m surrounded on three sides by National Forest, this “permission road” does not connect with it. Ninety percent of the traffic on this road is either sightseers or ATV clubbers. Most are courteous and mindful of property rights. A significant number visit just to act like fools and turn the road into a race track, get drunk, and do things they would never consider in their own neighborhood. They make it hard on the land owners and those non-intrusive visitors out to enjoy nature. Usually those causing trouble run with ten-twenty in a group are belligerent and confrontational when approached about their behavior. Many claim to be part of a “club”.

    Do you and your group police those using the trails to ensure they are not destroying the peace and tranquility of those homeowners along that stretch of private road? I’m not taking issue one way or another, nor do I pretend to know the laws in your state, but I do try to see both sides of a disagreement.

    1. Dennis, We don’t have policing authority. That’s up to New Hampshire Fish & Game. We do sign the roads (and all our trails) with speed limits, etc.. but that certainly doesn’t stop everyone from speeding… same as it always was.

       But I do understand and agree that there are those who abuse their freedoms to ride (same as it always was).

       The particular road that I referred to is similar to my own private road in that those who live off the road all share in the responsibility of maintaining it, etc.. For me, it’s just myself and one neighbor down the road (1/3 mile). This other road probably has about ten properties. 9 of 10 have no issue. It’s just the one. Maybe they didn’t know about the permission for snowmobiles to ride there before they bought the place… not sure.

       1. Ken,

          By “policing”, I meant the members of your group. Their behavior. I know you can’t enforce laws, but you can dictate behavior of your members and inform others using the trails that their behavior reflects, good or bad, on everyone.

          While I’ve owned this property for almost fifty years, using it for recreation several times a year since purchasing it, I didn’t live here until I retired 14 years ago. After moving here, my neighbors shared with me their complaints about the regular invasion of four wheeler ATV’s on weekends and holidays. They complained of the noise and disrespect displayed by many, but shared that they were afraid to confront them. I made it a point to confront those who were particularly rude and obnoxious with their actions. Some of these run-ins were pretty intense, including one that led to an attempted home invasion with me as the target. Only my recognizing it developing prevented them from succeeding. Word must have spread fast. Now, the overwhelming majority of recreational riders visiting are courteous and ride slowly by my and other homes. Evidently the rowdy crowd chose other environs to terrorize.

          My point is that if the good guys don’t confront the actions of the bad ones, it can make it hard on everyone. You don’t have to be a cop to tell someone you disapprove of their behavior and won’t tolerate it. (This doesn’t mean the newbies from Connecticut are not a-holes)

          1. Now I get your meaning regarding policing. It has nothing to do with ‘my group’. Here in New Hampshire, anyone can ride the trails as long as they have a NH registration (which can be purchased from out of state as well). While all of us locals have sleds and ride from time to time, it’s the tourists who come up from down south in the state and beyond. A typical winter the state sells 40,000+ registrations and any of them could choose to ride anywhere on the thousands of miles of trails we have here. Most of them are interconnected.

          2. Ken
             Wow, 40,000 and I thought I was being overrun with a half dozen. But I do have a gun range a mile away that is run by the local fish and game club – they are strict with reporting about anyone they find abusing the countryside or wildlife.

          3. hermit us, That’s spread across 9,000 square miles.

          4. What are your chances of being overrun by a very mobile group of people, summer and winter, should the crap hit the fan?

          5. hermit us, Slim to none. Thankfully. Though I don’t count on it ‘not’ happening. Must have Plan A, B, C, all of which integrates good security.

          6. – Ken, 9000 square miles? That’s just ten middlin’ size Texas counties! That’s pretty durn crowded!
             – Papa S.

          7. Dennis just said something that could fix a lot of in the whole country. Kudos

    2. Dennis and Ken
       As the issue of a “private road” can only become more confrontational, I would find an alternative route permitted by the Forest Service or another property owner. Around here there live a few that have adopted a possessiveness about their property to the extend they pile rocks along their large property lines as a boundary. These people get no support or help from any neighbors. They actually think they can hold the land forever rather than letting the land provide for them, the wildlife, and the community.

       1. Just to make it clear that the properties I refer to are forest lands, not worked ground. I also recognize it is their right to keep all people off their property if they want, but it does send a message to the community.

       2. hermit us,

          We may be talking apples and oranges. The locals get along fine, are respectful in their actions, and considerate of their neighbors. It’s people, many from hundreds of miles away, with no ties to the community, who haul their off-road vehicles in on trailers, park the tow vehicles on private property, then fan out down the unpaved county roads and down any perceived trail they encounter, scattering their beer and whiskey bottles in their wake.

          The group that I had words with, that came back three hours after dark to attempt to “get even” with me, were from a town 60 miles distant and had no ties to the community. We were just their weekend playground and they didn’t like anyone telling them their behavior was unacceptable and would not be tolerated. In this instance, a rainy day where they came off the county road, two pick-ups pulling trailers with 3 ATV’s, gutting their engines and rooster tailing mud high into the air spinning their tires, cutting foot deep ruts across my pasture. By the time I caught up to them, they were unloading their ATV’s from the vehicles parked on my land, and had already tossed 4 beer cans on the ground.

          Maybe I shouldn’t let things like that bother me, but it did. I dictated terms of disengagement, and they agreed, but not without mouthing their discontent. They returned later, to my home, well after dark, intent on showing the old man they didn’t appreciate intervention in their good times. One pulled in front of my home, I met him as he got off his four wheeler. He was obviously drunk. He said that he needed to come inside and use my phone, that one of his party was badly hurt.. I told him he couldn’t come in, I would bring the phone to him. When I backed into the front door to retrieve the phone, he started to follow me. I told him to stay off the porch and to not attempt to come inside. I retrieved the phone by the front door and he started up the steps again, This time I pulled my little LCP from it’s belt holster, holding it alongside my leg and again instructed him to stay off the porch. I then stepped to the edge of the porch and handed him the phone. He acted confused as to what do next. I took the phone away from him and asked who he wanted to call, an ambulance or the sheriff. At this, he jumped on his four wheeler, attempted to take off, but the beer cooler fell onto the ground. He quickly restored it to the rack, adjusted the strapping, then took off. At the same time I heard two more ATV’s crank up beside my house where his buddies were parked in the dark. They all fled on their four wheelers into the night, disappointed again. Never saw them again. The sheriff arrived three hours later.

14. That’s cause it’s popular to say things like “vote with your feet”. Quit telling them that cause they aint moving to a bad area destroyed by liberalism.
    My saying is:
    People = Problems

    1. Funny how that stuff works both ways,,

15. As a California Transplant myself back in 1981 ( I will bet that 99% here are a transplant at one time or another) I will say that there was a lot and I do mean a LOT of animosity towards anyone/someone/myself that wanted to make a better life for themselves by actually making a ‘move’ to the rural areas and becoming one of the community “ONE OF THE COMMUNITY”, BUT nooooo one becomes “Ohhh one of those people”; not really a nice ‘Welcome’ to an area.

    I know for a fact, through experience, that 95% of rural people will NOT accept a newbie for any reason what-so-ever, and literally make life hell for those that are new. WITHOUT even giving the Transplants a single chance to interact with the “community”. I know, been there, done that for over 10 years when I first moved here. And NO I did not try to bring my Californiaisum or any pre-determine “I’ll change you”. People just saw the fact someone else “moved” into their community and they hatted that fact.

    In the same breath I do realize that when there is a certain group/mindset of folks (transplants) that forcibly “take over” a location and force there will/change the ‘norm’, just as there will be resistance to anyone that has a different “point of view” either way, BOTH WAYS. Sometimes there will be all out hate to those that honestly do try to fit in. Even violence, again I know this for a personal fact.

    Unfortunately the world is getting smaller and smaller each day. And guess what, it’s not going to get better anytime soon. This Country is going to get more and more crowded and controlled, Sorry all, just a fact and not about to change.

    Hell just look at the Federal .gov, has it not gone to a pile of poop? Has not Local and State programs gone totally off rail? Has 99% of EVERY aspect of life not changed in the past 10-20 years? Just look at this BLOG’s conversations, 20 years ago we would not even be talking about 90% of what we do.
    Has society not itself gone to hell in a hand basket? Like a marriage, ‘For better or worse’, is what it is going to be and it ain’t going to change.

    So what’s the answer??? Poop, I don’t know, I doubt there really is an answer, People are going to move to your area, like it or not, Human nature is to have control, and yes City People are more accustom of having control and having control over them.

    The only guarantee in life is “change”. I will tell you now that if nothing ever changes, then ya might get your sign ready “The End Is Near”.
    We all would like to live as though our little hunk of space and never get invaded, but the fact is you moved there at one time or another and disrupted someone else’s “space”. I wonder if they also though you were trying to change their world with just the fact you were there? Or they though you would be a HUGE asset to maintaining the community?

    As far as Ken’s neighbors, well good luck, these Invaders now-a-days are a LOT more aggressive than anything I have seen before, they will stop at absolutely nothing to get their way, millions of examples out there.

    Maybe an EMP really is the answer??????? Orrrrr maybe not so much.

    Sorry, 600 words and really did not say much.

    1. NRP
       Given your skills, have some of these locals not approached you for help with anything. When some get to know how helpful one can be, I have to beat some off with a stick.

    2. Just to be clear, they aren’t my neighbors. They are many miles away on the other side of town (thankfully).

       1. Just to be clear even though they aren’t your neighbors, you and your crew will need to set a strong hold, because once your Connecticut neighbors get their ‘foot in the door’, so to speak, and BUY their way in, things will change….and not for the better.
          They may be a one family, but more may come.
          Put your foot down now. Cover your bases.
          Just saying

          1. More may come. Ohhh yeah, for sure. They will tell their friends back in the city how wonderful it is out there and before you know it they buy up almost every property that comes up for sale. And don’t forget, they bring money with them. That property listed for 400k is no problem for them. Meanwhile, the locals say, ‘no way that property is worth that much’. I lived in Missoula, MT in the 90’s and the locals I worked with told me that is how it went. And before you know it property values rose to where most locals were priced out of the market. A lot of those moving there were from Cali and guess what? They brought their politics with them.

16. This is exactly what happened to me in Colorado. It became a leftist socialist state essentially. So I moved to the Western Dakotas. I recommend strategic location be a high priority for all. There are so many great places still out there.

    I see that many Preppers are in locations which are simply too close to large leftist cities. I highly recommend relocating to an area which is 150 miles (Direct Distance) away from large cities with populations of over 200k. If you have impassible natural barriers you can probably be less.

    Even being out here or somewhere else will only buy time. Once Texas falls and it will soon. Pretty much that is it…poisoning complete.

    This is what happens when a Country loses its values. Every generation since the Greatest Generation has been a miserable failure. The bad is catching up.

    I think we will prevail though, but not until a lot of bad happens.

    1. Keeper
       I never thought Colorado would turn so leftist – the rot that started in Denver sure spread fast with the influx of thousands of socialists.

       1. I really missed living there, the physical area. Colorado Springs changed 100% in just a few decades. I knew to get out once they went after my gun magazines.

    2. Maybe too broad. It depends on what your prepping for too, I am a bit of a catastrophist. Some people can’t move for various reasons.

       I am not a fan of bugging out. But if you need to, then have a good plan and leave early. I will be at home praying for you. :)

    3. Yeah, look at Austin and how way left that place is. The rest of the state is slowly succumbing. Just look at how Progressive (socialist) the other cities in Texas are becoming. All the down to earth ranchers can’t compete with those in Houston, Dallas, and San Atntonio. They may not have completely flipped yet but the writing is on the wall.

17. I forget the governors name now as it was long ago but he started a real ruckus when his slogan (aimed at Californians) put on big billboards was something like “Oregon a nice place to visit but please don’t stay” : ) yeah- that didn’t work either

    1. aka,

       Back in the mid-late seventies a lot of folks from New York were moving to Texas for jobs. “I LOVE NEW YORK” bumper stickers started popping up. Soon after bumper stickers appeared “IF YOU LOVE NEW YORK-TAKE I-30 EAST…. DON”T TURN AROUND”

    2. I remember seeing the “DON’T CALIFORNICATE OREGON!” billboards heading south on I-5. I think it was between Roseburg and the Medford/Grants Pass area, but possibly further south to the OR/CA border.

    3. I live not too far from southern Michigan. A lot of Chicago people bought weekend houses there by Lake Michigan thereby pricing the locals mostly out of the market. Back in the 90’s there were t-shirts printed “FIPS” (F-ing Illinois People S**k). Today, on the weekends there in the summer, most license plates are from Illinois.

       1. When I lived by the Colordo river (near Laughlin) in Arizona we’d loudly announce in stores that there sure were a lot of CATS in town this weekend. People would look around, not realizing we were referring to them. California A$$ hole Tourists.

18. It appears that Texas is next to turn blue. Who would have ever thought the heart of freedom and self-reliance would ever fall to socialists. I guess the Alamo can be turned into a latte serving type of café. Yup, too many people and to many are lazy give-me-dats. The State is becoming exactly what the migrants from Cali were trying to escape – but brought the disease with them.

    1. I’ve been hearing that regarding Texas for awhile now. I went to college there. I’ll bet it’s nothing like what I remember.

       1. Ken
          Seems like you have come full circle. Went into Communications instead of the oil patch, moved to a more liberal State for radio work, then escaped to the rural independent lifestyle – you obviously know about both urbanities and rural societies. Flexibility is good and learning new skills keeps life interesting.

          1. I worked in the oil patch in Texas for several years. What was once a small town with only a gas station and one restaurant would turn into a small city in just a couple of years. I saw it happen in multiple places while working down there. And we’re are not talking some place with beautiful mountain scenery, it was desert covered in mesquite bushes.

       2. – Ken, it’s not. fortunately I live in a very rural area, and the public perception is that there is nothing to eat and very little water available in my area. We do our best to keep it that way. It was just this past year that google finally fixed their GPS directions for our area. For the longest, if you put my address in your GPS, it would take you to an old abandoned windmill about 8 miles from here. it annoyed the millennials to have to follow spoken directions, ROFLOLOL.
          – Papa S.

       3. Ken, it ain’t nothing like it was 30 years ago! Rich folks buying up both sides of the rivers and trying to close off the fishing from the locals, high fencing so game cannot travel freely, newbys wanting all roads paved, once the roads are paved the houses follow, Dollar store popping up everywhere. Also as far as Property Rights go, letting someone not trusted to roam your land (and sometimes even that don’t work) is an invitation to a lawsuit if they get hurt or snake bit etc. The out of state people first off do complain about the no trespassing signs. I explain to them that when you pay my taxes then you might have some sort of rights, till then go buy your own land.

    2. Yeah, I moved to Texas 20+ years ago and have raised my children here. Have to agree with your assessment, Hermit . It’s really discouraging.

    3. hermit us,

       I fear you are right. During my years working in Dallas the demographics changed drastically. It is now a minority majority city, meaning African Americans and Hispanics outnumber Caucasians. I remember an African American high school principal complaining to me in a casual conversation one day, before I retired, that all those years it took for blacks to get good representation on the school board, suddenly they found themselves outnumbered by Mexicans who controlled the resources.

       The Dallas mayor, Mike Rawlings is a Bill De’Blasio clone. Houston, San Antonio, and Austin are dominated by liberals.

19. There are days when I want to grow a beard, wear a long monk type robe, stand with a sign “the end is near” and try to warn urbanite migrants coming to north Idaho that the end is really near, because I took out the bridge around the corner. One can only dream. :)

20. I moved out of Austin to rural Texas 35 years ago, I hate to say this but there are still way too many ignorant rednecks living in trailers out on the county roads with their collections of old cars and garbage and their attitude that the Constitution entitles them to treat the countryside worse than they treat their dogs and women. And it does. I believe strongly in live and let live but honestly I’ve reached the point it makes me happy to see a new nut to butt subdivision going in just because it’ll thin out some of the Meth dealers. My good neighbors (and most of them are great neighbors) have every kind of noisy stinky farm animal there is, and I love it. I get a kick out of being stuck behind one of the big 8 wheel John Deere row tractors the farmers around here use, even with their bat wing discs folded up they still take up the whole 2 lane road going 15 mph. You should have heard the semi auto gunfire out here New Year Eve, sound of freedom. Be advised, rural Texas will not be liberal in our lifetimes, hopefully it will be smarter.

    1. Only MEXICANS live in trailers judge Holden! Ask them why they moved here and they will undoubtedly say because of gentrification of East Austin and as for suburbs…ugh. Those people are far worse than the ‘ignorant rednecks’ you decry. imagine 500 hungry fools who don’t even know how to change their own oil when TSHTF. At least those ‘ignorant rednecks’ won’t be knocking on your door like those from the ‘burbs.

21. Just a thought,
    I grumble about this too, we have people moving out here to the islands from all over creation, pretty much ruin all that made Hawaii such a sweet spot,
    The thing is,
    Isnt that what a free country is all about?
    I mean, if you try to stop the people from the city moving to the country, then what? Wheres that end?
    Theres just too many people, EVERYWHERE!
    Sad state of affairs we are in, but is a direct reflection on the divided nature of our Formerly United States of America (FUSA)
    Im just glad i lived where i lived when i lived there and was fortunate to see some of the most pristine country around here.
    Its gone, such is life, i cant do anything about any of it, i have known just as many assbackwards conservatives as i have assbackwards libtards, the biggest problem isnt lib/conserv or rural/urban its people, people are the problem, narrow minded, egotistical people, dont know the meaning of live and let live,
    Private property is private property folks, what you used to do, might not be what a new owner wants to put up with, deal with it, i have been on both sides of that coin. If you dont like that somebody wont let you trapse across their land then maybe you shoulda bought it when it was for sale, we see that here all the time, i gotta tell ya, i dont want anyone walking or driving through my place either, dont care if it used to be a shortcut, it aint! So tough patooties,,,
    People, too damn many people, but what gives me or you or anyone else the right to impede their right to buy land that is available wherever it may be? NOTHING!!!!

    1. Tommyboy,

       I agree. I’ve moved residence twice since becoming an adult. From one rural area in Texas, to another rural area 60 miles away. Thirty odd years later, I was still an outsider and not fully accepted, even though ordained as a deacon in the local church. I moved 400 miles to my present location, remote, on land I’ve owned for years and built relationships with surrounding families years ago. I’ve lived here now for 14 years. While I get along fine with these folks, I know I will never be fully trusted by them. I will never be one of them, because I wasn’t born and raised on the mountain, therefore I can never be fully trusted. Doesn’t mean I’m not liked or respected, but I’ll always be an “outsider”. Just the nature of folks in rural areas. I know, because I’ve never lived urban, or even suburban.

       1. Dennis,
          Dont feel bad,
          My family has been here for over 250 years and i was born and raised in the islands and still get looked at as an outsider, pretty ironic actually as my ancestors most likely brought the ancestors to the islands generations ago of some of those who would view me as an outsider.
          Who knows, people, fickle to say the least

       2. Same here Dennis. Moved to our recreational “mountain” 18 years ago…..will NEVER be considered a “resident”. We left ALL of our “city” lifestyle and attitudes behind, tried very hard to be welcomed and welcoming. Now, we just mind our own business, keep to ourselves and tell everyone we know that they won’t like the weather here, there is no water, no growable land and no way to earn a living. No one bothers us and we don’t bother them. Our neighbors all know whose cattle is whose and where to find the errant bull when needed. We watch out for each other, from a distance and all like it this way. For the most part, we have become accepted….it took at least a decade. Well worth doing, we would not trade it for the world…even when DH was suffering health issues, after we looked around at a more suburban area, we decided we are really not cut out for human co-habitation any more. So, we continue to enjoy our seclusion and hope the masses remain wherever they are.

          1. Pio W
             I can tell you are in an area of old ranches and ranchers. You stay on your side of the fence and they stay on theirs.
             It is nice to hear your dh is doing better.

          2. Pioneer Woman,
             We have had the same experience here on the western side of Colorado. Farm/cattle country, and we planted wine grapes. For years we were the ‘odd ones’, but sort of earned our place in the community ( and someone else planted hops recently, and now they are the “odd ones”). It took 10 years to be accepted, yes. Lot of time touching base with neighbors, helping them, mending fences, capturing loose cattle, etc. It took a lot of time to earn the trust of my neighbors, and that is very valuable. My neighbors all have permission to enter onto my place to retrieve cattle, horses, dogs, etc. unannounced if need be. I try to make it a point to talk to them at least once every 6 months, even if just for 5 minutes. I Always talk to them in the late summer about crop damage deer hunting I do on my place, just as a reminder.(Cattle people get nervous when they hear a high powered rifle being discharged near their herds. I don’t blame them one bit). I do my part for their efforts by taking out coyotes that give them issues). Basically, you have to prove to the folks in your area that you can be an “asset” and not a ‘liability’ to the community. out here it is called “Just being a good neighbor”.

          3. Oh not hops!. They’ve taken over southern Idaho, leasing out so much farm land that it’s driven up lease prices for our farmers. I suggest you discourage the hop growers from blotting out your scenic views.

22. The strategy for taking any state into the blue is quite simple; first you get the position of attorney general who has the authority to determine election outcomes and then you manipulate zoning laws to incentivize dependents to move into densely populated cities and you’ve got Democrat-voting cities for generations. Mastery of election manipulation, welfare incentives, zoning and housing strategies is how the country is going blue; massive illegal immigration has been tapped to buttress this program.

    1. Chevy
       Very true, which brings the question most of us are asking on this site, “how long until this system collapses on itself”?

       1. Hermit/Chevy
          One really does have to wonder,
          How long?
          Ive been reading these sites since just after obammy got elected the first time, they mostly all insisted it was right around the corner, yet, here we are, plugging along, SOSDD, so how long can TPTB keep juggling this bag o shiff?
          You know as well or better than i do that nothing has changed since 08, and in fact most of the underpinnings have actually gotten shakier,
          So how long???

          1. Ages. The demise of great civilizations has never been instant but gradual and assimilated until ground zero is reached. It isn’t a crash but a slow descent with a rapid downturn at the end. Roman Empire, Egyptians, British empire, Incas, Rock n’ Roll…
             And followed by very long periods of darkness, gradual awakening and renaissance; eons. Sit back.

23. Welcome to Mumbai with over 12 million or Delhi with over 16 million or Buenos Aires 12 million …. just to name a few. Can the people of this country adapt to these population densities or will the migration to all rural areas continue until ??? It is beyond me to see how these large urban areas even get enough food delivered for the people to live. What bothers me more, is that temperate zones do not need the energy to stay warm so if you add the fuel requirements beyond cooking to the mix, I don’t think 10 or 15 million sized cities could exist in northern climates.
    So, where do they all go – to what used to be open spaces, my place and yours.

    1. How long can New York city (near 8 million) last without power or daily deliveries of goods and fuel? House of cards?

       1. Hermit,
          My favorite bit of irony is that the rural areas, that are overwhelmingly conservative or moderate, produce all the food for the urban areas, that are overwhelmingly leftist and that views the rural dwellers as deplorables,
          I never felt so self satisfied in a decision as i had with my decision to go Galt in advance of hearing hitlery call us all deplorable for simply being the opposition,
          That day, at that moment i knew there would never be a reversal of my decision to fallow my fields.
          I knew that there was also no good to come from the Direction of the FUSA

          1. Tommyboy
             I don’t think liberals are concerned about food production – as long as the country can sell oil to China in exchange for food bars (of questionable content) and they can get their daily latte along with the circus, all will be good. Just need more 200 sq ft apts and a mat on the floor. Hummm China already has this for the population – boy we need to catch up.

          2. Wait till the lights go out and bombs start falling,
             It is one of our yets
             Everybody has them and the FUSA has quite a few,

          3. I know a few Chinese nationals over here,
             China is not so nice, most liberals, if they had to survive in that system, would die most awful deaths at the hands of the government, there is no left and right over there, only left and farther left, not much niceness going on, not unless you are one of the uberwealthy, but they are all far left and are just barely allowed to roam, in relity those are few and far in between and the State will take from any one of them at any time the decide to

24. I live in the only Republican county in NM. We have no services and it is fine by us. They ignore our county and downgraded us to Frontier. I like that. Very few people live here as water can be scarce, the soil is not good for growing, and radio and other reception is pretty bad. But the views are great, the air and water are clean, and we haven’t heard a police siren on our dirt road in 20 years. It is hard to sell your house or raw land once you buy it, but you can’t beat the quiet and the wildlife and the sunsets are incredible. Oh very few dems here too.

25. Imagine you grow up in area where the town is less than 8,000 people & that is with the town city limits extend a ways out from center of town. The whole county is less than 100,000 people, and the majority of the businesses were ranching(cattle), fruit orchards, lumber mills, and recreation. If you run into someone you knew, they would introduce you to the folks they knew. It was a friendly place to grow up, years later as the town grew into a city the friendliness was still there. Then came the influx of flat landers/outlanders, next then it was the oh,,,you do not have XXXX store or this or that. Change started, and not for the better, who cares if we have Traders Joes, Dicks Sporting Goods, or Macys. That is just a small sample of the un-necessary stuff we have had to put up with.

    That does not include the party that purchased the large cattle ranch to the south of us, he decided he would violate the agreement in the purchasing of said lands which has to stay a cattle ranch in perpetuity. He started by realigning a fence that has stood for over 30+ years, not telling those that backed up to his land what he had planned on doing which was a violation of standing law for fenced boundaries. He thought because he owned a fiber glass insulation manufacturing business in the Bay Area he could do what he wanted, so the land owners in this area made his life a living he!!.
    He broke every building code, and paid heavy fines, he finally got tired of us and sold out. Buying another ranch where I know his life was made even worse…rowl

    This area has grown so much it is not what I grew up knowing, one does not need a Mc D, shopping mall, Macy’s or other such un-necessary stores, I personally like the mom & pop business. We are narrowing down places that will be suitable for us to reside, since this area is starting to look like a mini LA including unwanted migrant’s, & give me dat’.

26. WOW, this topic really got a lot of posters going today. I was fortunate enough to grow up in the ‘burbs and I still live in a nice suburb in a different state. I was fortunate enough to grow up learning to hunt and fish. I had many adult role models that showed me what to do and ( just as important…) what not to do when you are granted the privilege of fishing or hunting on their land.

    When I was given permission to hunt on a private holding, it was frequently a job with a contract to hunt a specific species ( such as ground squirrels ). To go on that land to do anything else such as: Shooting and killing a flock of pet turkeys that were hand fed since they were chicks, Cutting and removing oak firewood, shooting deer out of season without tags, shooting a forbidden species like bunnies ( rancher thought they were cute…so leave them alone.) Driving your vehicle off the road and getting your vehicle stuck…These were some of the many stupid things I have seen on private farms or ranches and it is the primary reason I approached some parties with a loaded rifle or shotgun on my person.

    The contract between the person with permission and the landowner is sacred…The primary reason I have lost access to land was by land for sale and being turned into subdivisions or…One of the members of your hunting or fishing group is an opportunist that will commit the acts that violate the terms-of-use and ruins the area for all members of the party.

    When I became an adult, I tried to place some distance between myself and those criminal opportunists that ruin good things for other people. I still go hunting though these days, I go with a guide. It is a privilege and too many people in this society have forgotten that fact.

    These days, I do most of my shooting at a local private range that is open to new members. If you live in a rural area, people tend to pull off the road into a turnout and just start shooting at their empty beer bottles. Many a day has been spent picking up trash around my uncle’s farm fields.

    Though I have moved up to my new home state over 9 years ago, I have taken the time to find out why the locals do not like relocating Californians: #1 reason is the new residents vote and if they vote in high enough numbers, they tend to skew the results of the election thereby “Californicating their new home state. #2 It also does not help in that most of my fellow Californians are not working and are collecting their pensions or living off of their retirement funds or disability payments.

    Over 9 years ago, I relocated out of the Golden State in pursuit of a 40 hr a week job which pays cash/ not IOU’s. I am still working at the same job I came up for years ago. I pay taxes and I have not voted. ( butt, I do contribute to my favorite political lobbying groups like the NRA and make donations to support local causes like the humane society and the local community aid organization.).

    Just like my old state, I have friends up here and there are those who do not like me. I am not trying too hard to be liked and accepted in my new home state. Most around me would consider me a good neighbor when they see me working in my yard or walking my dog and picking up the poop. Truth is, I am at work a lot compared to my neighbors. ( some 60% and climbing are retired.)

27. Ever heard of Agenda 21 — coming in 2 years. With all of us in big cities, we will all be Democrats. Now we know the real purpose of Agenda 21.

    1. Agenda 2021 has been changed to Agenda 2030. look it up…essentially…same thing diffferent number…

       1. Maybe it has become clear that to implement their plans they need to get rid of us pesky freedom lovers – perhaps tougher than they thought.

    2. It isn’t Government for and by the people but for and by a global cartel.

28. i grew up in a little town in west ny state dirt poor we HAD to learn how to make do with what we had we learned fast that NOBODY was gonna take care of us i learned how to use firearms SAFELY before i could ride a bike
    i was taught to track things before i went to school and i made the mistake of getting into drugs and drinkin and i got clean and sober and was forced to move into a large city so i could get clean and sober i had some had some HORRIBLE things happen to me so my sense of self preservation is much more heightened i carry at least 2 knives on me at all times one being a belt knife which makes me stand out in crowd and even more so in a city and as i am NOT small which makes me stand out even more
    city folks just DO NOT UNDERSTAND just how vulnerable they are if things go south or just simple they could be CUT OFF OF EVERYTHING i see a very DARK time coming for this country city folks TRY TO FORCE THERE IDEAS EVERY PLACE THEY GO and they are about to find out just how bad a idea that is

    1. Your story sounds much like mine. Grew up in small town. Got in trouble for drugs. Sobered up and went to the city. Now I’m back in my small town in the house I grew up in. I carry 3 knives and a 45 because I know what I was capable of and I have seen the bad side of life. I try my best to be one of the good guys now.

       Congrats on your sobriety. It sounds like you are on the right track now. Keep up the good work.

       1. thanks i try very hard

          1. 😎🤙🏻

29. For me it is about the attitude with which some trespass. For instance when I had to leave the farm I purchased a house a few miles away where each house had an acre. Had a garden in the back. One day this female “jogger” came down through the back of all our yards in tow with a dog. Missed her the first time but was alert the next. Dog was running through my garden! Soon confrontation ensues. asked What do you think you are doing your dog is running through my garden which I work my a– off in! Oh it is not my dog but a neighbors who follows me. said Really well I do not want you to run through my property again. jogger said huff huff……… end of story. She was one of the wealthy that had a BIG house on the road behind me and well she was SPECIAL,,, not

30. Have a california guy buy some property in our nearby town. One day he goes to city hall to complain about not enough sand or chat on a street that had just been oiled. He said his shoes were ruined because of not enough cover over the oil, saying in California the city would have to buy him a new pair of shoes. City clerk told him in Missouri we don’t walk on freshly oiled streets. Wasn’t happy.

    1. country,
       New arrivals can be very interesting. We had a new arrival to our area see some cows in a pasture , no grass-just dirt , felt sorry for them and called the sheriff to come and correct the situation. Besides a lobotomy what do you do with these folks .These people breed and vote , we are in trouble .

31. To Kevin and car guy:

    All of us on this site seem to come from a common background and it matters not where we currently live be it in the larger cities, smaller towns or in the unincorporated countryside. We all have a strong independent streak and have had some deprivation in our past lives. Most important is we all object to the concept of the “Nanny State” and have severe doubts about the ability of a single leader or a chosen council to make all the rules in which to live by.

    Locally, I have become: “the old man with the 45” that goes to the range about 1x per week and simply tries to keep all my shots within a circular bullseye target. Most of the “old guys with an old gun” have stories to tell butt they are very quiet when at the range. Many in California were retired Marines and quite a few were retired from LAPD. In a state that frowns upon concealed carry, they all carry knives on their person at all times including trips to the bathroom.

    Most of the time I try to stay out of politics butt I have been becoming more active about keeping my local range open and user friendly for families to bring their children or grand children. Ken does a good job running this site so it motivates me to be involved in some local companies or agencies whose politics and vision are such that I agree with.

32. I am probably the most unsociable person on this site, but comments on this subject have shown me that my efforts to develop a unified community far exceed many others. It appears that some bad experiences and fears have turned even this open minded group into strangers in their own rural communities – this is the greatest criticism of urban centers, strangers on the same block.
    There seem to be divisions that go beyond race, religion, economics, …. when even the neighborhood can not work to solve issues of interaction, we are truly screwed. Have a good life.

    1. hermit us;
       Certinally hope you don’t think that many of have not tried to welcome newbies to our neighborhoods. I know I have and as you suggested I offer my “skills” quite often to those that come. Heck I even completely re-wired a home for a guy at no cost, and gave him everything needed….. That did not work out so well as he “expected” it every time he needed something.
       AND I will admit I have quite a few very good friends around, With that said I must also add their are only a very small handful I would open my OPSEC to, and ask to join in my preparing. Most others are complete flakes when it comes to the Lifestyle.

       1. PS;
          You got nada on me as far as “unsociable person”
          Dude I’m the king of TP, and nobody likes a TP King… HAHAHA
          Seriously though, tis hard to welcome a Newbie when they all out state they don’t like the way things are and “will change” that.

          1. At least your throne is soft.

       2. NRP
          I too just finished a wiring job for a new neighbor from the big city. When the job reached a level of complexity beyond my knowledge, I told him to get in a professional – he was thankful that I admitted my limitations rather than risk his safety and property. Unlike your jerk, my guy is very appreciative, and even thou he is not too skilled, he tries to help in any way he can. He is a new prepper that has seen the writing on the wall, so come spring we will help each other with the gathering of firewood for the upcoming winters. He has also become an excellent animal spotter – talents and skills vary and lead to diverse communities.
          This now becomes the sixth neighbor to add a diversity of skills, one is a great machinist with great equipment, one has a large track hoe, one is a great butcher with cold storage, one is a weapons expert, and one is a good mechanic. So, I guess I am fortunate to have only one a-hole neighbor who has now become totally isolated in terms of community – but he is too stupid to see that he may need friends when it happens.

          1. hermit us;
             You my friend are very fortunate to have a lot of “good” neighbors with some very good skills.
             Maybe it’s the location, or maybe it’s just me, hell I don’t know. I sure do wish at times I had found a different location, but like many I got hooked into where I am for now. That may change in 176 days…….
             Here is another one for you, of my neighbors…. Was plowing snow for quite a few people with my Backhoe, on one of the drives I broke the drive linkage. Ok’ no biggie right? I asked if I could get him to help me tow the hoe back to my place with his truck….. “No” I have things to do inside”… Really? I’m out here in this friggen freezing weather and cleaning others drives, and I need a little help and he’s to busy????? Never talked to that “gentleman” again….
             So yeah, I have had some problems with trying to get people here together… As a lot of people will tell ya. “when TSHTF, your neighbors will be the first to turn on you”. I do believe here that will be the case. Hence my local OPSEC is extremely important to me. Gray-man to the MAX!! you might say….

          2. NRP
             What is with you neighborhood??? When I needed a tractor to pull me out of a jam, the person was here in minutes, when I poured the concrete planters I displayed on this site there were about a dozen that came (men and women) to help with concrete work (you know what that work can be like), when I craned up the entire roof structure onto the posts of my pole building six men came to assist.

             I don’t associate much but when I see someone needs a hand, I am there. I too plow snow for several with my tracked skid steer and only accept volunteered payment – never been stiffed yet. Heck, I even snow plow the 2 mile trail that crosses my property so the neighbors can walk without snowshoes. I guess I live in a different world than many in here.

          3. I also recognize the work Ken does on this site to encourage community and also his work on the trails so others can enjoy nature.

          4. correction
             trail I plow is more like a little over a mile – just checked – hard to gage distance through and around in the bush.

          5. hermit us,

             I believe there’s a miscommunication here. I get along fine with my neighbors, and yes, most are able and willing to help each other. When I had by-pass surgery and my hip replacement, a crew showed up unannounced and built a wheel chair ramp and railings around my porch. They told me it was partial payback for all the work and favors I’d done for them.

             Yes, I and others are wary and intolerant of strangers just showing up on our land uninvited or off-roaders treating our property like a public access race track. That’s a far cry from neighbors walking across a corner of your property or asking before they hunt to make sure they aren’t interfering with someone else’s hunting. Like I said before, I have never refused access to hunting on my land when asked, unless it would interfere with someone else I’d already given permission. I even gave permission to a man and his son who showed up one day asking if they could pay me to hunt my land for a day. No way I would have taken his money. He was a total stranger, but I respected him for respecting me.
             You seem to construe the fact that I’ve confronted rude drunks who are complete strangers for destroying my pasture and littering, as me putting up sniping towers and shooting at anyone that trespasses, and having war with my neighbors. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Every neighborhood, urban, suburban, rural, or remote, has good people, not so good, and even some butt-holes. I treat everyone as individuals and on their merits.

          6. NRP,
             Yup. one of the problems of being the ‘nice guy’ of the neighborhood is that some folks don’t appreciate it, and others come to ‘expect’ it. If you quit plowing for one big storm, I bet your phone would be ringing off the hook with them wondering why you weren’t out there plowing. Just the nature of some people I guess. I know you probably plow out of the goodness in your heart, and not for the thanks. but when you feel like you are being taken advantage of, it makes the joyous task a chore. Just remind yourself it is still positive for your karma if you do it without any thanks.

33. Dennis
    We don’t get the influx of recreational types that you refer to, so our experiences and ours are different. Glad you have developed trusted relationships in your area – we also built a ramp for a neighbor that has MS and needed a wheelchair access.
    As things worsen, our line in the sand may get more defined but we are in a good place at present.

34. Ok my turn….hehe
    My property neighbor is from the rich burbs south of here. He’s in the oil business Uses the land for hunting and comes up half a dozen times a year. He has owned the land five years now. My abutting property has been in my family for generations.
    I helped him hook on to his trailer to load up his tractor to take back to his home a couple weeks ago, because of back issues and feeling ill. Helped him drag and gut his first deer a few years ago, And I inform him of any unusual activity around his place.
    Yup the same fella who last year accused my son’s friends of stealing his bow stands and the same fella that cornered my son at the gas station and told my boy that “he was f–ing up his October bow hunting by running his quad” on OUR/MY own property.
    My son told him that he hadn’t been on the quad track since July fourth.
    So yes to all of those that have done their best at helping others by being neighbourly……at what price??

    1. Joe c
       Now you know.

    2. Yea, being neighborly can be overrated, ive got a few good stories too, 101 reasons why i really want to move to Mt or Id, when everything gets squirly i have doubts. Hope for best, but hardened for the worst

35. Hermit, Tommyboy
    Yep

36. Just read that Baltimore has 30,000 abandoned homes. I wonder about other urban areas and where all these people went? I hope they all hitched to San Francisco for the nice weather and soft sidewalks. Pelosi is there to welcome them when she is not partying in DC or Hawaii.

    1. hermit us…….

       According to the Huffington Post the number of “vacated housing” is getting lower. That’s actually since ‘our’ government is giving away $$$ to raze the vacant ones. Apparently to make the abandoned ones look less in the bottom line. “We” are paying for 40,077 houses to be demolished in Detroit, Flint has a vacancy rate of 16.5%, or 9,800 house that are “empty”.

       The highest vacancy rates are in: Detroit, Flint, Baltimore, Youngstown (Ohio), Jackson (Miss), Toledo (OHIO), Macon (GA), Montgomery (ALA), St. Petersberg (FL)and Saginaw (MI).

       Rumors have it that the “destination of choice” for those looking for a hand-out is San Fransisco, Dallas, Atlanta, and Miami.

       You now have an idea where you ain’t never gonna find my derriere!!!

37. I have mixed feelings about this, and i truly believe it is because it is a unique instance. I am young, I have not lived through the hardships that most have during war time- and when I mean war time, I am speaking WWII, Korea, Vietnam, I perceive wartime to be much different than it is now. BUT I could be very wrong. I’ve lost two VERY GREAT AND HONORABLE FRIENDS, F-ing brothers, since 3rd grade.. to suicide who’ve served in Afghanistan. I live(d) in a very very rural town (500), went to college, found my place in business (I still can rip apart a John Deere A) i did my time in the city, and even though I may come through my new small town wearing L.L Bean and a “nice car” I can offer MUCH assistance to my neighbor.
    Though I am quite silent majority of the time, I have a lot of opinion on this topic…
    my neighbor use to be a Richard to me and then I was able to offer assistance to him on 3 occasions (where I Can count on my hands), he now understands. I have to provide for myself. I guess off of this BS ramble, I’m trying to say regardless of where they come in from, the clothes they wear, etc. maybe talk to them first then make your opinion. I’ve lived it first experience being treated like sh**, only because I came in from the city… but I still broke down his “daddy’s” tractor..
    you never know who’s moving in until you get to know them.
    Probably unpopular opinion, but eh, I’m good with that ya kats.

    1. “you never know who’s moving in until you get to know them.”

       …that’s exactly right.

       Appearances are only what you see on the surface and may have little to do with the actions and character of a person. I too was considered a ‘flat lander’ when we first moved here. But it didn’t take long for the locals to realize that we’re not what they thought we would be. Though we will never be a ‘local’, we fit right in.

    2. Whiskey Vision
       See 12-29-18 Saturday posts.
       Very bottom.

38. On my old farm the hippie that moved in next door started growing pot on my land, I turned the cows in on the pot, he let my cows out onto the road, i called the police and a month later my house was burned down. The hippie then called the police on me on made up firearms accusations. I had a good old boy neighbor who say the mess coming, he took all my guns away from me after my house burned down so I didn’t go do something stupid. It made it easy when the police said i was threatening people with guns when my good neighbor had all my guns. I sold the farm

    The new farm is one where all my neighbors are armed and like cows.

    I don’t really like anyone on my new farm, everyone gets told to leave, then they get thrown off. I have some unresolved issues with tree changers.

39. I don’t see many liberals moving into, and staying in the one of the poorest counties in our state. wonder if these ‘poor’ counties might not be a good place for prepping minded souls to move to. Near as I can tell most of the population has taught themselves how to take care of themselves, with no real support from the State house. The liberals that move in either conform, or move out. None of them has rallied the Capital to ‘help the oppressed’ of that country. Less government “help” means more self-sufficiency. They are avoided like the plague by the liberal state government. I suspect there are these ‘little islands of self-sufficiency’ in every state. just food for thought

40. Some body may have already come up with this acronym for the profile of people different than us: Hip URban Professional Youngsters or HURPY. I work in a place where I am surrounded by them most every day. I do not want to talk about groups of them or you would get HURPY’s and I would feel icky and feel the urge to bathe myself in hand sanitizer.

    Not to be confused with HARPY – a character associated with old Norse mythology i.e. Nancy Pelosi of the State of Kalifornia/ now Speaker of the House in Congress.

    Yes, I have been accused of profiling in the past. Guilty as charged.

41. The only problem with “Urbanites” moving out here is that they bring with them the same pernicious leftist politics that caused them to flee their cities in the first place. This “we can fix it this time” attitude will forever doom their new rural homesteads.
    My advice is that they should stay where they are and fix the political mess they caused BEFORE moving on…

    1. Sometimes I just have to hold my breath and count when one of my liberal friends or family members comes up with “It would have worked if the conservatives blah blah blah” or “We’ll make it work if the conservatives don’t ruin it!”

       I remember Ted Kennedy saying that if he’d been in charge communism would have worked, and that seems to be the over-riding attitude. THEY just didn’t do it right. WE will make it work. Idiots.

       1. Thats why
          Who is John Galt!
          Let em eat shiff

       2. Time after bloody time Socialism fails after which Socialists say the same damn thing, “If we only had the perfect man, with the perfect program, using the perfect people at the perfect time and the perfect economy we could MAKE SOCIALISM WORK.”
          Now this assertion may sound asinine however this is almost a verbatim statement from one of my university professors; and they actually believe this crap.

42. Thanks Ken for the article! It was quite revealing to see some of the reactions to newcomers! This one really hit home for me, as I’ve mentioned before we are now owners of 15 acres in northern Idaho and will be looking at relocating in the very near future.

    While I agree that suburbanites from liberal cities have a tendency to force their wills on unsuspecting residents, there is also the other side of the coin… people like me and my DW, who are anxious to leave the liberal “loony-ness” behind! I guess my main hope is that the new neighbors will reserve judgement until after they get to know us. We are both givers, ALWAYS offering more, and hardly ever ask for anything. We care about people but prefer to be on our own. We love visitors but would like to know ahead of time that they’re coming. We are not involved in politics, except to the level of screaming at the Left idiocy. I guess if that makes us people who should be judged unworthy of their care and considerations, so be it.

    When I went to inspect the property, I also checked the closest town out. It has a grocery store, a hardware store and a couple of restaurants. It also has just one stoplight! Now at this point, I imagine some of the readers who live in northern Idaho will know exactly what town I’m speaking of, but I feel anonymous enough in the MSB community to let out some of the details. Anyway, I reported all of the details back to the DW and she was accepting of that, but a little anxious! I have lived in small towns before, they do take some “getting used to”, but we are both too old to be going out shopping after midnight, partying it up all hours of the day and night, and are level headed enough to understand what’s right and what’s not. We are also really looking forward to person freedoms!

    The property purchase has/had so many benefits for us and checked off so many boxes for our plan. We now have a BOL, even though it’s still just raw land. We have a future retirement location that is close to our 5 grand kids, but not so close that they’ll be there every day! If NOBODY in our new community welcomes or accepts us as neighbors then that will be their issue. We will have plenty to keep us busy and the sounds of kids laughing to keep us company.

    I hope I can meet up and share some adult beverages with some of these folks from No. ID, I can offer a strong back and a good work ethic to new friends and neighbors. :)

43. Another thing to consider on this topic, especially for those buying rural or remote properties with the intent of pursuing a dream of a true off-grid lifestyle. You may think that you will fit right in with neighbors who have lived a secluded lifestyle all their lives, but, you need to consider how you are perceived.

    Many of your new neighbors may have been raised without a grid to hook up to, but embraced things such as electricity and running water as soon as it became accessible. They may be very wary of folks who buy property with the intent of being completely disconnected from the grid and talk about future disasters and a coming apocalypse as the reason. They may or may not dismiss seeing you walking around all the time with a sidearm on your hip, even on your own property. You can rest assured that someone will be paying attention to your actions for no other reason but curiosity. People who have lived a hardscrabble life trying to eek a living out of a remote, near wilderness area, and knows the family tree of all their neighbors, will be suspicious and curious about new comers. Things they would readily embrace from family and friends, may be considered suspect in new comers.

    Case in point. I eased into the community (widely scattered remote neighbors) I retired to over a period of many years after purchasing property here, making many friends among my future neighbors long before retiring. Another couple who moved to the area from out of state a few years before I retired, did so to fulfill a desire to go hard core survivalist. I met them once, casually, and they seemed to be nice folks. They never discussed their sought after lifestyle, stayed to themselves, didn’t bother anyone, and did not interact with any of the locals. Their property was very secluded and heavily wooded. Of course, rumors were rampant as to who they were and what they were up to.

    A man who I have known for close to 50 years, who has never lived or worked anywhere off the mountain here where he was born, who probably hauled every drop of water his family drank in a bucket from a spring,, made it a point to find out what these folks were up to. Being a born and raised backwoodsman, he surveilled them surreptitiously, observing them digging caches in the ground (on their own land). He immediately jumped to the conclusion that they must be some type of subversives or terrorists. He called the FBI and reported their activities. The FBI and BATF came and questioned the couple, who cooperated, showing where they had stored caches of food and supplies, their water catchment system and solar power set up. The agents were satisfied they were harmless.

    From then on, they were known as the “hole diggers” by others in the area. They never tried to interact with others and they were pretty much ignored afterwards. I tried once to visit with them, but was unsuccessful. He passed away a couple of years ago and his wife gave it up, moving away last year.

    A word to the wise. The hills, do in fact, have eyes. Like hermit us advised, build relationships with your neighbors. Different cultures, different ways.

44. Folks where I am now are generally cordial and will help out if asked. I’ve hired quite a few to help with the heavy lifting. A few are friendly. Most are transplants from somewhere else and prefer their privacy. A few substance abusers on the road like any rural area. And idiots. One recent arrival was bragging at a get together about driving his Jeep in the river. Took him to task for damaging salmon spawning beds. Most homeowners here in the bottom do not permit hunting on their property. Lots of undeveloped forestry lands interspersed on which hunting is allowed. Out of area hunters tend to ignore the restrictions and find we all have the DFW on speed dial. Upper end of the road is moving toward less and less hunting allowed. I’ve got 25 acres that backs on the river. Lots of guided fishing from the public access a couple miles upstream so really can’t stop them. Otherwise, except for the problem children and the occasional psycho in the woods, good fences make good neighbors. Along with surveillance cameras and signage, of course. Property lines? There’s an app for that.

    My county recently went from declining population to stable. Predominantly older, no jobs, teetering between blue and pink, lots of old loggers still voting union/ dem-side but no union jobs left, relatively lower middle class, not much entertainment if one is not outdoorsy or doesn’t like the rain. Monthly bingo at the grange is always fun. I love the quiet, and all the neighborhood roosters.

45. I find that if most people just don’t act cordially with them they will get the hint. It may take a while but they will move on.

    1. Don’t help them, give country directions and get them lost.
    2. If you are a business owner tell them that their card was declined. When you run it turn it over so the strip is upside down or something. If it is an Garage quote them the highest possible price cause you know they cannot do the work themselves. Restaurants give them horrible service.
    3. Towns people just ignore them turn a cold shoulder to all their wants and needs and they will have a lot.
    4. Repair men tell them you can come fix it but you are booked for at least 3 weeks.
    5. But don’t put their kids in a bad situation I.E. no heat when it is 15 degrees outside instead use this time to educate them as to the rural way of life and how we act and live out here. Tell them if they want to be treated like they belong then accept where they moved and stop trying to change it or the cold shoulder may continue.

46. im ok with it just means more houses to loot after SHTF

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