Gangs WILL Rule The Cities

This is for those who live in the cities and population dense suburbia.

Here is one possible (likely?) outcome for those living in the city regions following a full-on SHTF societal collapse where supply chains and infrastructure break down and law enforcement mostly becomes ‘just you’:

Gangs and mobs may become the Number One problem.

Gangs may take over a city very quickly starting with their own blocks and neighborhoods. Their numbers may grow very rapidly as (some of) those desperate for water and food may become their “new recruits” — joining up for their own survival.

The gangs may become a formidable wrecking force for a number of logical reasons. It might be the downfall of many who are preparedness-minded while still living in the city or densely populated burbs…who believe that it won’t get ‘that bad’.

When Civilized Society Collapses


Gangs already rule the ‘dark underground’ of todays cities. When civilized society collapses they will be unleashed and unbounded, enabled by the chaos that will become the new reality.

During this time, many within law enforcement will likely be more concerned about the safety and well-being of their own families and their own homes, choosing to stay and defend their own.

Logic dictates that even if .gov declares Martial Law it will only have limited effects. It is highly unlikely in my estimation that America’s cities and city regions could be controlled if we all collapse into social chaos, upheaval, and systemic breakdowns of supply and infrastructure.. One, maybe two, but that’s about it IMO.

[ Read: Martial Law: Could It Happen Here? ]

People living in cities and even the immediate population-dense suburbs will be subjected to a very cruel and unusual environment. They will be HIGHLY at risk from foraging gangs.

Think about this… It is one thing to protect yourself and your family from an intruder. But how will you protect yourself and your family from a gang mob?

The thing is, even during so called ‘good times’ the gangs are armed with weapons, have honed their criminal skills, and are not afraid to use them. Can you imagine AFTER SHTF?

Gangs WILL rule the cities.

Most of us living our lives today do not see the underworld, the underbelly, the gang and criminal activity lurking beneath the surface, the drugs and dealings… They cleverly hide it, and it lives largely in the shadows on our streets. If you know what to look for, you can find it and see it, but most do not as they go about their daily prescribed routines.

It will be a shock when it happens.

Many preppers (preparedness-minded people) living in the dense population of a city or suburbia with their own supplies and long-term storage believe that they will somehow manage to make it on their own. This will NOT be the majority case in my opinion. The probable eventual confrontation with roving hostile foraging gangs and mobs will likely NOT be in your favor for many or most.

It’s all about the numbers.

10, 20, (or more?) of them and just a few of you? Who’s going to win?

It will take very good planning, particular assets (which will be running out), and ‘enough of you’ to deal with this threat. And that’s not to mention the issues of collapsing infrastructure.

If you do not have overwhelming numbers or overwhelming defensive measures and/or protection, you will be wise to choose a plan that avoids direct confrontation altogether.

Move Out Of City Regions

Here’s an idea:
Move out of the city BEFORE the SHTF.
Move out of densely populated suburbia.

Here’s another idea:
Establish a bug out location (one that works and is supplied).
Prearrange a bug out to someone you know where it’s safer.

[ Read: The Perfect Bug Out Location? ]

“Hope” Doesn’t Cut It…

We all ‘hope’ that it will never hit the fan resulting in a terrible collapse and social chaos scenario. We ‘hope’ the-powers-that-be will hold it all together for years to come. The ‘hope’ that extreme political differences and ideologies will not lead to civil war. We ‘hope’ that a cyber attack will not take down the power grid. We ‘hope’ there’s never a weaponized EMP…

Because it has always been fairly peaceful during our own lifetimes and we ‘hope’ that they always will be, right?

The thing is this… Blinding your eyes for the potential of a chaotic future reality is just living in a bubble. A cocoon. Most have a very false sense of security. We are living in a technological fantasy world of sorts. Our sense of security could be blown out of the water in an instant.

Be aware of where you live and whether or not you will be in immediate danger of gangs WHO WILL TAKE YOUR FOOD AND SUPPLIES (and worse) as they feed their needs to survive after societal collapse and infrastructure (resupply) breakdown.

We must accept that ‘if’ it hits the fan, that gangs and mobs will probably become your worst nightmare. And these may not be the stereotypical gangs that you visualize in your mind… they will include lots of desperate people willing to do anything to survive.

Don’t say I didn’t warn you…

What’s your opinion about gangs or mobs after collapse?

Will this element become a substantial roving threat?

Will they remain in smaller groups as they forage for supplies?

What might be their ‘reach’?

Will a household stand a chance against this element?

How important is it to have a predetermined bug out plan if you live in these regions? (I suppose that depends on your risk tolerance and your own perception of likelihood).

[ Read: Social Collapse: Your Only Rights Are Those You Can Defend ]

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136 Comments

  1. Reality may not be of just the normal criminal gangs! We should consider the possibility of foreign troops being in this country, terrorists who have dreamed of when they could kill Americans, all of which will not show mercy towards us! Just read an article that to consider that Venezuela may have issued hundreds of Passports to terrorists that would enable them to enter many western countries!

    Know your options and write down plans of those options as a group as to how to deal with this issue! Bugging out before it gets this bad is best if you have a BOL. Knowing how to escape complete with different routes on foot using natural cover of night and knowledge of the area is another.

    First you must have the means of self dense, with the mind set to survive by whatever means necessary, without it you won’t survive!

    1. There have been plans, drills, and agreements for a while now that would bring foreign troops onto American soil to assist with quelling insurrection.

      1. And yet, those foreign troops have absolutely 0 experience in dealing with an armed population. Or (assuming we’ve been disarmed when this happens) a population with a self-defense mindset. They’re used to quelling “insurrections” among people who have always had to have the King’s permission to own a weapon, and self defense has historically been a matter of huddling against the wall while the soldiers go through your house looking for things to steal, and hoping they don’t decide to take your daughter as a bonus. THIS is the historical and cultural background of the majority of the world. Those foreign troops would be totally unprepared for the differences.

        1. Lauren PLEASE do not Underestimate the enemy that is often a fatal error.

          Not all Foreign troops are stupid or otherwise unable to deal with “A population with a self defense mindset”.

          A LOT of foreign Troops have EXTENSIVE Experience dealing with Terrorist Groups in their own countries. I “Think” they can figure out how to “Deal with an armed Population”.

          Or as I say way too often “Don’t Dance under the feet of a Raging Elephant” (and variations of that theme).

          1. I agree with NH Michael. Sun Tzu warned us to NEVER underestimate the cunning,resolve, or capabilities of your enemy. At the same time, here in the Southeast United States, the militia movement is alive and well. As a prepper, I have been a target of recruitment. There are at least 3 groups in my area that train in military operations. One large group has a member who owns a good distribution business. He stated they plan to pay with food, for proof of death of each UN soldier. (UN helmet: bullet hole optional) Another group has the best operational security. A Korean war vet, and a Vietnam war vet, training a group of young people to be snipers. My point is, if the feces hits, it will be a bloody asymetrical warfare scenario. Combatants on both sides will die. Civilians will die. There will be no “innocent bystanders.” If you forget for one second that “all incoming rounds have the right of way”, you will just be a name carved on a piece of granite. FYI: I did not join with any militia group. My personal tactic will be to appear harmless (grey man) to all, and try to keep my family safe. If I must fight so be it, but I’ll not actively seek to go into combat. There is no “reset” in actual combat. You don’t get multiple lives, or drink a magic potion to restore your character’s health. “War is hell, but actual combat is a SOB.”

          2. Another gang risk are prepped groups gone rouge. Even if all prepped groups start with good intesions, they all will not remain benevolent, not in the cities and not in the countryside. I’ve seen some you tube videos recently on Somalia. WORL, gangs have taken over sections of Mogadishu and extort taxes from the people, growing rich. We can only imagine what happens if one doesn’t pay up. Of course, there’s turf wars and the folks who get trapped, injured and killed in the cross fire. People are opportunistic. There’s no reason to not believe that socio/psycopths wont be a problem out of some prepper groups, especially the martialistc types. Wolves really can wear sheeps clothing.

  2. for years i lived on the dark side of things i did some bad things that im not proud of then 30 years ago i got clean and sober
    i have turned things around 180 degrees but I LIVED THIS

    AND THE COLD HARD FACT is this gangs understand only one thing WHO HAS THE BIGGER BALLS AND THE BALLS TO DO WHAT MUST BE DONE depending on how big a group you have and how well you are supplied and armed MEANS EVERYTHING AND WHO HAS THE BALLS TO KILL THE SLIME this is a no joke scene and its very likely to happen

    1. It seems to me that in general the bad people in the cities are also used to being protected by the police and courts right now. A lot of the same people cause trouble go to jail come out cause trouble and keep repeating it. Nobody shoots them because it’s against the law and not worth going to jail for. In a every man for himself situation people will be more willing to put the vermin down to protect their neighborhood and the punks won’t be used to that. I think it will be tough going immediately but a lot of the herd will also get culled before they realize that they are not a protected species anymore. Then again i could be wrong. Time will tell.

  3. Local governments can also be an ally to gangs, as we saw in Baltimore. To get an idea of the potential of government taking sides with WROL gangs spend some time viewing what is going on in South Africa.

      1. I have no doubt the cities would turn into something like “Escape from NY,” while out in the country, it might possibly turn into “The Postman” meets “Mad Max” (especially out West).

        I would like to hope the cities can contain their madness, keeping it from seeping out into the ‘burbs and countryside, but I am doubtful.

        South Africa in 2021 is an object lesson on ultimate societal collapse. The SHTF has most certainly happened there!

    1. What is going on in south africa is awful,
      But then again
      It has africa in the name, so what else would you expect, am just sayin, no slur,

    2. Old Chevy — this is a phenomenon we should all be very concerned about. Baltimore was somewhat overt, and contained to the city. What about the covert government operations that we have seen taking place, both here and abroad? The Arab Spring created an enormous world disaster, and THEY ARE HERE. S.Africa is growing worse and worse daily — WITH the S.A. government involvement ( I suspect the Rogue DeepState/CIA is also involved).

      1. Think deep state involvement? Obama was over there a couple of weeks ago and seems real happy with the top dogs there. No doubt in my mind that he would welcome a little land grab.

        1. There’s a nice little parcel over at Guantanamo, faces East, cozy, bedside-service with 3 hots & a cot…
          :-)

  4. If you can – GET OUT OF THE POPULATION DENSE AREAS NOW.

    Don’t wait for that “perfect day” when the stars are all aligned and you hear angels singing ’cause that day aint comin’!

    We did it 2.5 years ago. Finally realized that this perfect day we were waiting for didn’t exist and if we wanted to get out of our failing suburb we needed to just go ahead and do it.

    Was it easy? No.

    Compare the house in the country we bought to the house in the suburbs we sold and you’d see that the house is the country is twice as large but only half as good. It needs extensive renovation and remodeling. It’s an older house by about 25 years or so and it’s showing it’s age.
    HOWEVER…

    We live OUTSIDE town and city limits in the county. Our lives, even in this house which needs so much work, are exponentially BETTER.

    We have land. Densely forested with hardwoods. We have a large pond full of Bass, Brim, and turtles.

    We can step outside our door and fire a weapon and not only does nobody care, it’s LEGAL. We frequently hear gunshots out here and it doesn’t bother us.

    In the suburbs I was told that if I had drawn my weapon to put down the deer I hit with my Jeep, I would have been arrested.

    There is so much that I could type about the differences between the suburb we lived in and the rural area we live in now that it would take up all of Ken’s server space!

    There were and still are challenges, but it can be done. We were NOT ready to buy a house, and had to surmount many challenges but by the Grace of God we are here.

    As Pastor Joe Fox is fond of quoting…

    Revelations 18:4 “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not be a partner in her sins and receive her plagues”

    1. restoringBrad
      VERY VERY happy to hear your trials and tribulations over moving into a rural area! Congrats on getting out!

      1. Thank you. We still have allot to deal with, still trying to get my eye fixed, find or create an income, and the house needs allot of work, but we feel better out here for certain!

    2. Nice job getting out. I KNOW it’s not easy. How? I did it too.

      I took a very big hit in income, but was determined (for a number of reasons) to do it.

      Now living on 30 acres in a mountainous region with VERY LOW population density. Gardening as best we can, working the land, storing ahead, building defenses, planning for ‘just in case’, and enjoying every minute of it.

      The people here are much more enjoyable interacting with than where we once were.

      I am happy that I traded my (our) old lifestyle for this one. Much happier despite less income.

      It’s a huge life changer. Not for everyone I suppose. It’s scary at first, but it becomes your new normal. Smelling the Roses, so to speak.

      1. I’ve lived in the country before as a kid, a teen, and a young man, and my soul prefers it! Indeed, the smells, sights, and sounds are so much better here.
        The commute for my wife’s job is now much longer and that is wearing on her a little, but not as much as the insanity of her job is.
        I am looking forward to renovating and remodeling the house, clearing some of the land, etc. On a side note, after two seasons of garden disappointment, I’ve decided that if we can afford the supplies, the garden near the house will be raised bed next time!
        Just heard from the power company meter reader that our area (very rural) is slated for smart meters. They’re already putting up the wifi equipment. Not sure how to feel about that, have heard all manner of good and bad regarding smart meters

        1. R-Brad
          See if you can opt out of the Smartmeter.
          On our plan we could…..for now, but have to pay additional fees per month for the meter to be read.
          There was a process we had to follow through to refuse it.
          Post a sign on your meter that refuses the change. Call your power comp. now to see if you can refuse.

        2. R-brad
          Depending on the state you reside in, you can opt out of the smart meter. We were able to as we were electric with solar kick back to PG&E. They now have the meters for the units that issue solar energy back, we still refused the smart meter, did it on the condition of dh health issues related to Nam.

          PG&E, rips off the consumer with all the bravo sierra along additional charges to cover their behinds do to losses from bad management of equipment. MHO

          They take us to the cleaners for around $18.00 per month. Just imagine what they are doing to every one else who cleans their shoes.

  5. Short term (for the first few years) gangs would be a part of reality. After they run out of things to steal, people to kill for food, etc, they would of necessity break up into smaller roving groups. Which isn’t necessarily better. The best alternative with this scenario is that they then turn on each other and kill each other off. Which again doesn’t do much for the survivors caught between them.

    I have a friend who lived in a refugee camp for years. He considered joining a gang which was allied with the local gov’t so that his mother and sisters would be protected. He decided against (which was a major incentive toward getting them all refugee status in the US) which turned out to be a good thing as there was a coup shortly after and the gang was suddenly being hunted rather than protected.

    Gangs only last as long as the needs of their members can be met. When the food is gone or they can no longer protect the families as promised, they would break up.

    1. Lauren, People to kill for food. ? To take their food or to eat them? If it all goes to hell there will be cannibals.

      1. Either. I was thinking of people who they could kill to take their food, but the other is a real possibility. Regardless, soon or late the gangs will not be able to provide what their members want/need in their familiar surroundings and will have to break up for survival. When they start eating each other, the fringes will break off because they know they’re next.

        1. actually I’m not worried. Feinstein appeared to me in a dream and told me not to worry that nothing bad will happen now that I’ve made my AR Californian Compliant. Got rid of the flash hide and the pistol grip and put a rivet through the stock so it can’t be adjusted anymore. Removed the magazine release so now it is just a medium powered breech loading .22 single shot.

          We’re having a 2 county wide garage sale next weekend so I’ll sell the removed parts to somebody up in Oregon where they’re still legal.

          I’m sure glad that all of the gang types had to do the same as now we are on even footing.

          1. Me;
            How about sharing some of that California Gold you been smoking HAHAHAHAHA

        2. Lauren, Hey, you’re describing Neegan’s gang from The Walking Dead!

          No, seriously…It seems logical to think that gangs would need to splinter off because of resources. No doubt many of that kind has already had some long pork, so I’m not sure if they fear cannibalism. Maybe. If I run into a ganger, I’ll ask. ;-)

  6. I have seen what MICHAEL is telling about. ,,people snap and do things that are not reasonable to believe they would do. Had men die 6 ft in front of a Browning machine gun ,,,cut them to pieces but just kept coming ,,,,,,it was a race to see if we would run out of bullets before they ran out of men ,,,,
    Will you in the city face such a time ,,,??I believe so ,,,WHY ARE YOU STILL THERE?????? DO YOU WANT TO BE PART OF THE 90% ,,,,,,,,,,,,that die
    If you do get out where will go???,you might find a group to take you in ? If you have a skill that’s needed?? The fact that you are in need IS NOT A REASON to take you in,,,,remember pretty girls are a dime a dozen in such times ,and most often only have one use ,,after the pretty boys are dealt with ,,,GRIM REALITY ,,,,
    get out now ,,,,,,

    1. old H, Mr. has told me about the Betel Nut the Vietnamize use to chew. Said they came in waves over and over jumping over the bodies of their own soldiers with no care at all. Now we don’t have Betel Nut but, there is Meth and other substances probably to deal with in the gangs. What we need is some good old fashion Dexedrine. Mr. said with those orange pills you could pick off a flies wing at 100 yards!!! They gave those to them on some night raids.

        1. old H, of course it is ok as long as your not playing cards! LOL
          It takes all of the armed forces to make the country run and being faithful is everyone’s right to say should they want to.

  7. Well, Here we go, Ken’s proposed situation;

    “following a full-on SHTF societal collapse where supply chains and infrastructure break down and law enforcement mostly becomes ‘just you’”

    My friends Gangs are not Mobs, Gangs are not stupid by any means of the term. Take a Mob that’s pizzed because Trump won the election or Freddie Gray death, those were simply Mobs that used the excuse of Mob Mentality. They were semi organized by Soros Money, but mostly just stupid people set of destroying ‘Stuff’.

    Gangs on the other hand are fairly smart, they know the rule of the land, and they know who has what and what to look for when acting out their illegal activities. Take an internet look at M13, yes they have a bunch of ‘thugs’ that get caught doing stupid stuff, but the Heads of most all Gangs are very well educated and wicked in their ‘businesses’. Ever hear of the Hell’s Angles? Have any idea what the total worth of their members is? AND their recourses?

    OK, so Poof, the Country becomes a ship-hole because of “societal collapse” Ever seen Sturgis in early August? 500,000 Riders show up for an interesting 10 days; MOST in some sort of Gang or another, and Yes the Rally is a very peaceful one (for the most part), my point being if that many can travel to the middle nowhere SD for a “Party” what do you think those “Gangs” will do “If/When”? They WILL head out of the cities and suburbs to find Mom-&-Pop Podunk town also.

    Most say that 3-5 days in a city and it’s done in for Water, Food, So-On, these Gangs are going to see the Martial Law hit those same cities fast and will be right in there evacuation to their own BOL right along with all the rest. Unfortunately those Gangs will see you and all the rest of the travelers as easy targets.

    How would you like being in Chicago when TSHTF? Last weekend over 60 people were shot “Just Cause” Gangs mostly, now think on heading to your BOL with 3 kids, the wife, Grandma and a Semi load of “stuff”?

    Sorry guys, there is no answer to this massive exodus of both “nice” people and Gangs. Ya might think on getting your azz OUT now, before TSHTF and 50 gang members think they need your stuff more than you do, than hope like hell you don’t get found.

    Oh, BTW, remember they have Google Map also that shows your Homestead, Outbuildings, wells, and Gardens and don’t really care about anything but their needs/wants. Remember, these people are NOT stupid like a Mob of protesters.

    Just my 2¢ worth, Have a nice day :-)

    1. NRP if you don’t mind I’d like to add that While REAL Mobs (NOT Social Justice Warriors or Antifa) are Stupid they are Dangerous BECAUSE they Are Stupid. A “Thinking Group” has a Warning Shot fired and a shouted Go Away will pause and think before acting. Even Antifa “Mob crazies” do not attack police with knives or guns YET. A ENRAGED MOB simply Screams “GET HIM” and CHARGES the Shooters.

      The WEAKNESS of the Mob is it’s Stupidity. No real Planning Skills UNLESS Provided by A Demagogue USING the MOB for his own benefit. And Lack of ability to carry on much past the last “Successful” Plundering of Food. Thus why the Golden Horde of Mobs is not too likely.

      NOW a Golden Horde of Bikers or Gangs ARE a horrid Threat to who ever is in their way. Thus my constant “Harping” on Going DARK so they have less of a chance to Find you.

      NRP I am HOPING If and when the Biker and or Gang Golden Horde is rolling GPS-Google Maps-Internet IS DOWN.

      Pray for the Republic

      1. NH Michael;
        While I’ll agree with the “REAL Mob” being dangerous, tis hard to see this sort of mentality venturing much past the nearest Starbucks; they “usually lose interest much past the city limits.
        Whereas an organized Gang (Which is what this Article is about) will be a hugely different problem, and I disagree with a determined “Gang” there will be no “Warning Shot fired and a shouted Go Away” will detour these sorts of characters.
        Mobs, remember the Laundry and Cleaners Centers with the Asians or the Tattoo Parlay with the armed owners guarding? The Mobs turned; a Hunting Gang would simply back off a little and take them out.
        Just the way it “May” be.
        Like I said, there really Is no answer.

  8. If you live in a “major metropolitan area”, there’s one thing you must have:
    A PLAN.
    You have to know WHERE you can go.
    Don’t just get in your vehicle with a Mars bar and head out. Know where the hell you’re going.
    You have to know MORE than one way to get there.
    If the only way you know of is on the interstate……you loose.
    You have to understand WHEN to go there.
    Don’t wait until everybody in your neighborhood is gone. If you do…..you loose.
    You have to know WHAT to take and what NOT to take.
    Leave the damned game console sitting on the stupid television.
    If you think you can stop by the ATM for a little cash……..you loose.
    If you think you can stop by your favorite gas station to top off the tank…..you loose.
    And, OBTW, McDonalds most likely WON’T be open.
    If you think you’re lost, DO NOT ask the guys at the next intersection that are shouldering AK-47’s. They ARE NOT the welcome wagon.

    What I am attempting to point out is……..you do not want to be in LA, Seattle, Dallas, Houston, NYC, Hoboken, Chicago, St. Louis, or any place with jillions of people in it. Look at a map of the place you live. Think about how many people are in that place. Now imagine every one of them on the roads trying to get out. Or looking for something to eat. Or drink. And willing to blow your butt away for a six ounce glass of water.

    ‘Nuff said.

  9. Most of us on this blog site probably have had little or no “gang” interaction . Kevin, in an above post today mentioned how gangs act/think . They do not think the way that most people think and rationalize. Big balls wins all in their world . In a small town near us last year a gun fight erupted at a gas station at 2:30 in the afternoon in the middle of the week. No one was hurt except gang guys, that was a blessing. NRP mentioned that gang leadership is smart , yes they are .
    Getting out of a large population area just makes sense, unless you enjoy turmoil. Chicago is a perfect example of mayhem on a grand scale . If you are living in a city I would be making plans to move ASAP to a less dense population area .
    In a SHTF scenario I am sure there will be gang activity on a large scale and it will most likely begin in the larger population areas where it is easy pickings . It may diminish further from cities.

  10. Gangs ruling the cities? Hard to say. As a former big city cop who worked the “bad side of town” most of my 34 years on the job., my first thoughts would be no.

    “Gangs” have been around a lot longer than any of us have been alive. Some of them are violent killers, some more fraternal and tough talking, but not violent. Having said that, those into drug dealing probably account for the overwhelming amount of gun violence in America. Take that figure out of our statistics and the U.S. would most likely have one of, if not the lowest gun violence numbers in the world.

    The average gang banger can’t shoot for sh&t. The first time they picked up a gun and shot it is probably when they shot “at” a rival gang member guilty of turf infringement. He/she is probably 15 years old or less (the system treats the young un’s more gently, don’t ya’ know). He probably missed his intended target and hit a innocent 3 year old playing on the front steps of their government project apartment. When they do hit their intended target, it’s usually an almost point blank surprise attack (3 feet or less).

    On the other hand, the majority of the people in the “war torn” cities are decent, work-a-day Joe’s, trying to make a go of it just like the rest of us. Granted, the ratios have shifted somewhat as those with the ability to move to the suburbs have done so, not so much because their own neighborhoods were dangerous, but because government, in all it’s wisdom, began mandating that their kids go to school in the more violence prone sectors. Those “good folks” remaining, detest the “low life’s” destroying their environment. Without government restraining them, they will eliminate the problem of gangs, at least in their current configuration, rather quickly, and, like their rural counterparts, will band together against outside threats.

    Then again, they may dissolve into a fiery cauldron of dog eat dog anarchy.

    1. Just to clear things up a little bit, when I referred to gangs, I wasn’t necessarily referring to gangs in a traditional sense (today’s city gangs, gangbangers, drug dealers, etc..). Rather the notion of coordinated groups (perhaps including (or not) today’s gangs) that go on the offense to gain food and supplies. Pillaging. Organized groups.

      1. While that distinction is helpful, it’s also academic. Where there are drugs, there most likely are gangs. Modern gangs (Crips, Bloods, MS-13). That INCLUDES small towns, especially in the NE which is a major conduit for the international drug trade. I know. We have them in my neighborhood. And worse. They will be defending their turf a la the “Duke of NY”.

    2. The bussing of students to violent areas was cruel and a form of child abuse in my opinion. I do not blame people for the white flight so to speak and/or the enrolment of their kids into private schools even if they required some sort of scholarship to attend due to the high fees. Other lucky kids could have been sent to live with Aunt Mary in a different location so he/she could attend high school in a peaceful area. No kid should be forced to move from a better school to one with roving gangs and crime. I bet no black middle class family would have wanted their children to attend the violent schools, so why did white kids have to do so? I would advocate for a class action lawsuit against the government. I am Canadian so thankfully we did not have school bussing. It does not mean that in the future some leftie will not implement this genocidal plan. I was a kid when I heard about the Boston bussing and I thought it grossly unfair to the white kids. To me this would just fuel racism and I did not understand the government’s motives unless they wanted to decimate white areas and/or start a race war. We do not permit guns in Canada but for decent law-abiding Americans I can understand the fear of legal weapon confiscation especially with the UN mandating their own agenda. It appears that the UN agenda wants to decimate western nations.

      1. Well good morning, not yet a senior! We finally found common ground. I was a kid in Chicago in the 70’s when forced busing was instituted. Of course “da po’ folk” didn’t have transportation; so our county sent buses to collect them. I will never forget when ‘da brotha bus rolled up for the first time. “P’Shhhhh” said the air brake. Miss Connie swung open the door. And in an INSTANT, all of us locals got shoved hard to the right on the bell curve of intelligence. So there was that good thing. Another thing I learned from ‘da brotha’s was how to fight and fight dirty. I also learned how to take an injury, deal with it, then counter-attack with devastating ferocity. Within a few weeks ‘da brothas had all the cute girls sorted for us too. Some were dropped right off the intrigue list, so I’m grateful for that. But these poor stupid slobs had the worst stinking, ghetto-ass schwag weed ever seen in modern history. That and “Newport” menthol cigarettes. Uh God, the locker rooms, head and a few other places just reeked of that stink forever.
        .
        Beyond that we learned an entirely new, highly simplified vocabulary. ex. “muhfuggah” is a dandy that can at once be used as a noun, pronoun, adjective, adverb, salutation and term of endearment. Fascinating! They also seemed to be pathologically preoccupied with male genitalia; which seemed to get worked into every conversation as well.
        So please don’t speak to me of the negative aspects of forced integration and school busing in the 70’s. I was there. And I got a lot of life lessons out of it. For one, I wish to thank our liberal overlords for their wisdom and foresight. May allah bless them.

      2. My sister fought this just last year, and fortunately won. The school board was going to bus their middle schoolers several miles away to a school that was rife with gangs and violence, when they had an under-capacity middle school within walking distance. A third of the “new” school was going to be bussed to other areas. I think the intent was to break up the violence culture that had taken hold, but as mentioned it’s been tried before and it failed every time.

        But every new generation of administrators has to do their own thing, and won’t listen to history. WE know better. WE can do better. WE are smarter than them. WE can make it work.

        1. Lauren,
          Most all people involved in administration of schools and teachers for the most part are liberal in their views, not saying all teachers are politically liberal, but the viewpoints tend towards liberal policy so that integration thing is a common thread. Its quite unfortunate, the reality is not everyone can be “saved”

          1. As someone who has taught for years (though I just quit and am trying out the business world–new job starts on Monday), I see some truth in what you say. I live in a conservative area, most of my teaching friends are conservatives, and I think that many on the school board are conservative, yet educational ideas that are pushed nation-wide are now considered FACTS, and not just theories of what might work. Trying to reach the hardest-to-reach students is an amazing, wonderful thing! The problem is that anytime more resources (time, money, whatever) are put into one thing, they come from somewhere else. Where is the line drawn from what is acceptable to take from one group of people to help another? (Does this sound familiar? It obviously doesn’t apply only to education.)

  11. Looting, violence, and gang wars can be anticipated in the cities. Ask the Volunteers of the Oregon 41st Brigade that mobilized and helped to restore law and order in New Orleans after Katrina.
    Perhaps anyone here wishing to purchase any of Chris Bent’s books could possibly go through Ken’s Amazon link.

  12. Well from my perspective urban areas are going to be a nightmare. That is why I moved to very rural area about 9 months ago. I got out while I could and I made sure I did it right with a good job lined up.

    I ultimately realized it was not possible to be as prepared as I wanted to be in an urban area. I found that I was idealizing bugging out. I realized that bugging out needs to be the last plan. Unless you live on the very edge of an urban area I do not think you will be able to get out during a collapse SHTF event. In the chaos you will be lucky to even make it out with your cloths.

    Gangs, thieves, desperate people, swindlers and beggars will all be out in full force. The chaos will be horrific in a collapse SHTF scenario. Eventually when it calms down more organized groups will become a nuisance. They will go from street to street cannibalizing (Literally and Figuratively) what they want. Most of the people in the cities seem decent now but that will end quickly when the supplies run out.

    Ultimately you should know what your preparing for. You need to find your sweet spot for prepping. For example, I do not prep for a Yellowstone eruption or nuclear war directly. I am focused on prepping for the coming Financial Collapse and Zombies (The Left).

  13. Unless the US is invaded by an organize group like the cartels combined with corrupt Mexican military and other central American countries, this country will continue to rot from within. There is no one to fight when your area is slowly overrun with people of a culture that sees lawlessness and corruption as just a part of everyday life. There are several countries that insinuated large populations into the US and have benefited from great education, health care, employment – not overlooking the purchase of industries and properties for more control.

    The time to draw the line is now, not when your society has been shattered. Can we not learn from the errors of Italy, Spain, Sweden, Germany, …. and others that are waking up too late to stop the destruction of their countries.

      1. No, I think it is just a wave of locusts feeding off the wealth the US has generated. Freedoms in this country are being used against us and the socialists/communists takers are insatiable feeders until this country is Venezuela.

          1. You could be right, but I see economic migration as more realistic than a movement based mostly on doctrine.

  14. Gangs in the cities? Absolutely.
    Taking anything/everything they can for their “leaders” and for the “group.”
    It is survival mode now. So many desperates will “choose” to survive and they, like us, will have their “tribes”
    They would chose to stay in their areas and locally, but when all has been taken, they will venture out further and further. And becoming even more desperate to obtain needs/wants. And growing in numbers.
    A mob perspective is a group that may/maynot have a common interest. Chant, push, shove, riot, burn, loot, then go home.
    A gang is for survival. Protect them, that they may/may not protect you. False security. Right or wrong in some minds. ” I can receive food for my (self, family, child), instead of being on our own,but I am required to do…,..?
    I don’t like it, but what other choices do I have.”

  15. “Hope” is not and has never been a tactic. Whether you are planning for a natural disaster, a war, the USA going full Weimar, a False Flag event or a pandemic; do not hope. Do. Have plans in place. Have the necessary implements and resources for you and your tribe to survive. Hope, Normalcy Bias, and a Pollyanna attitude will get you in serious trouble, Hope will get you killed.

  16. With the ‘generic’ hungry/thirsty gangs, let’s add in the semi-current prison population, which by-the-way will probably be on the streets within 24 hours of when this country takes a dump…..that being 2,121,600 as of about two days ago. Then the 747,408 registered sex offenders that will be running around lose as a goose. And, just for grins, let’s throw in the number of scumbags already in jail…..1,574,700. That’s over 4 million ‘people’ back on the streets. Hungry, Thirsty. Looking to find your stash. And they will be grouped into gangs. Tribes. It won’t take long for them to recognize which house might have what they want. Trial and error. Not every mansion has a years worth of food. Not every beater either. But, they can come around here and discuss things with my Mossberg, Kalashnikov, Smith-Wesson, Glock, and hungry dog all they want. I speak 0000 buck, hollow point, ACP, and ‘modified .30 cal things’ as well as English.

    I look forward to more skeet coming up my driveway.

    1. Our stance has always and will always be that we are not looking forward to confrontation of any sort.

      No matter how many well trained, well equipped, and experienced battle hardened group members may be standing beside us, no matter how much food and other items we have stored up, no matter how hardened our defensive position may be, we do not look forward to any gang, group, golden horde, stragglers, etc. coming up our road or on to our property and being aggressive.

      Yes, in the kind of scenario that it described in this article, it is a distinct possibility that there will be groups of various kinds of people leaving the urban population centers. It is possible that some of us will look out of our windows and see a group of people or a gang outside.

      I also acknowledge that it is possible that some or even a vast majority of inmates and prisoners will be loosed upon the public. I have read articles penned by people much smarter than me on the subject which state that the threat of imprisonment is the only thing that keeps some people from acting out their impulses to assault, batter, steal, rape, molest, loot, kill, etc. If that threat were to be rendered inert, there would be an immediate and dramatic increase in all sorts of crime.

      We do not look forward to violence. We have zero desire to witness it or engage in it.

      We do not want armed conflict on American soil, on our road, in our driveway, or in yours.

      We pray that it does not happen.

      1. Brad….

        I’m not saying that I am “looking forward” to my comment. Just that the probability does exist.

        In several jobs that I have had there have been numerous LEO types working with me. Some wearing uniforms some wearing suits. Some carrying pistols, some carrying fully automatic attention getters. All of them had very similar feelings towards “when this country takes a dump”. Each one of them would be “calling in sick” when the balloon goes up. Even facility guards. And when the number of ’employees’ in these facilities hits 50%, they all bail out. You can bet on it.

        No, not all of those getting three hots and a cot are going to hit the streets with a bad attitude, but there will be a high enough percentage that will be. I really hope not in my neighborhood and not yours. But, I guarantee you I will be prepared. And I will protect me and mine. If you are close enough, put your hands over your ears because I aim to destroy a few ear drums and save our hides.

  17. “Thief caught” or “burglars caught” on youTube- watching these people approach the cameras innocently,
    nonchalantly, then at a certain point they commit themselves to crossing the line and they get serious.
    Some interesting videos that can help you know the enemy.

  18. I don’t live rural, I live frontier. We have been downgraded, which is perfectly fine with me. I know that even out here we will have some problems with some people who feel like they should be boss, but probably not for long.
    So here we are in the middle of nowhere, never heard a siren in 18 years go by our house, but just heard that 1 of our 2 deputys that patrol over 100 miles to the west was shot by someone coming through the main road. And we know both of them! Guess no place is really safe.

    1. Twalk,

      Just curious if you’re willing to bet your and your loved ones lives it will never happen? I honestly believe I won’t wreck my my truck, yet I carry insurance. I honestly believe I can buy groceries next week, but I keep extra in stock in case I can’t. I honestly believe my water supply won’t fail, but I keep the spring house cleaned and ready in case it does. I honestly believe no one or no animal will threaten the lives of myself or my family, yet I’m equipped and trained to defend them.

      I honestly can’t figure how someone could not ponder possible threats to their loved ones and consider how to thwart those threats. If you’re not a troll, hang around and ponder with us. It costs nothing and maybe you will see what we do to prepare for the “what If’s” that we may have to confront. You may even have something to add to the conversation.

      1. Dennis I AM Impressed. :-) That is the calmest most rational explanation for reasonable prepping I have ever heard. I hope you don’t mind I may try to be so eloquent next time I chat with my non- prepping friends in the coffee house.

        I’ve used a few of your examples but never so well put together.

        BTW I have been pleasantly surprised when others in the coffee house come up later to discuss rational prepping with me. :-) A LOT are non-college youngsters with multiple jobs trying to support themselves. Gives me HOPE.

        Dennis does your spring house have the ability to be used as a frontier Refrigerator? A lot of the older ones used to have space for shelves to keep milk jars and such cold.

        Again Thank you very refreshing posting.

    2. As the CDC said it’s not a matter of if but when. In regards to another plague. I think that also applies to another carrington event. World war 111. It’s just a matter of who’s lifetime. Yours, your kids or your grandkids as far as i’m concerned.

  19. Twalk
    Lol
    You don’t see/hear about it now???
    Just throw in a catastrophe and see how the problems now will multiply.
    Everyone is just awaiting for a reason.

    Just courious….get around much?

  20. We now have a one word reply for any argument for turning a community into a gun-free zone – Chicago.

    Gangs will rule, not by sitting on a throne, or taking over essential services, but as they do today in many places through fear and intimidation. They will control movement and economic activities starting within their boundaries and then expanding the fringes. In short order, given a full/blown WORL situation, those remaining eventually will rule kingdoms of desolation.

    After preying on the small grocery stores and their neighbors’ homes in the urban centers, where next will their foraging take them?

    Make a plan, find a place, do your best.
    Watching and praying it never comes to this.

  21. Ok, apparently that question came across wrong. Just want to state a few facts. I have been in the preparing for many of years. I believe, I have and am doing the best for my family and self. We do all the normal self sufficiency ( garden ,canning, orchard,raise all our meat..etc etc. and I am aware of the daily ongoings in the world. But I admit im just not sure I think it will get as bad as Ken mentioned in beginning of article ( I hope not at least )..

    1. Many people don’t, but those of us who believe it’s a possibility (even distant) wish to prepare for it, if only emotionally and mentally. It’s a what-if, and a valid one considering the state of the world at the moment.

    2. Well it really just matters what happens. The events that are most likely to occur are the less serious ones and more regional ones. Preppers tend to focus on what can go wrong so we plan for the worst. Recently, many more of us feel that the current path the world has taken will lead us to the big one.

  22. “Organized groups”

    The nature of burglary changed in my former hometown a few years ago. Went from a solo intruder, with at most one other, usually at night, to groups breaking and entering together, usually during the day. These were not homogeneous groups either – men and women, teens and young adults and older adults, average appearance and shabby. Coincided with significant uptick in number of homeless in the area.

    Tapered off for a while after four or five broke into a retired deputy’s house one afternoon while he was napping. All but one, I think, was shot and more than one died from their wounds.

    I recall how Pat Frank described the ever changing membership in such groups in Alas Babylon.

    So, organized, perhaps, but also think unstable at their core.

  23. I think that we all on MSB hope not as well. However it’s wise to review the historical record and realize that the possibility of a collapse is greater than the impossibility.

    Think expected timeframe of the republic from founding to collapse, the astronomical national debt, the devaluation of the U.S. Dollar, the cultural decline, the historical timeline of previous world empires, our military obligations beyond comprehension ( as was ancient Rome’s ), the destruction of our public education system, etc. A stock market correction, which is normally about 50%, could very possibly be the last straw. Some people think that that’s still in the offing, saying that it’s overdue for a correction. As well as some people think that we could possibly be on the verge of civil war.

    Enjoy the economy while it’s going full steam ahead. Preparation on your part is a matter of choice. Keep in mind that it’s been said that some very wealthy, connected people have purchased places for retreat, should the need arise. In other words, they are preparing for what they believe could possibly a reality one day. It’s better to have it and not need it, than the other way around. It can’t hurt to heed the Boy Scout motto ” Be Prepared “.

    In some ways being prepared is simply us relearning the lost skills that went by the wayside as technological innovations simplified our lives, and caused us to rely more on a machine ,or appliance to do the work for us. That’s not a bad thing, but it’s wise to retain certain skill sets in case they are ever needed, for whatever reason.

    Being prepared is also not only for the end of the world. It’s been mentioned here on MSB several times how that folks who were preparing for what ever reason, were glad that they did, because a situation arose where they needed to use the things that they had on hand, until they were able to get back on their feet.

    Bottom line is that you’ll have to decide if you want to prepare, and to what extent. Ken has covered preparing on various budgets, etc. MSB is certainly a good source for answers to questions that you may have.

  24. In a full-on SHTF societal collapse I think gangs would find average people would shoot back and through attrition (it’s a numbers thing as there are a lot of people with guns in this country) the gangs would suffer an ongoing loss of life.

    The only thing today that keeps normal people from shooting gang members is the rule of law. The away that and people will kill problem gang members. It has to be this way to survive.

    1. Chuck my friend as much as I would prefer you to be correct about attrition of gangs dues to return fire even today in America WITH Welfare and SNAP etc. gangs Recruit successfully to replace their members lost due to gunfire and other wounds.

      There will be attrition but in a full on SHTF Social Collapse as long as desperate people are around looking for any improvement in their lives there WILL be replacements for the gangs. Daily life in some areas of South America TODAY would be thought of as SHTF by most of us. And there armed Gangs have casualties daily and find plenty of recruits to fill those “Job Openings”.

      The US Army thinks gangs are enough of a problem they have war-gamed and developed Operations in Built up area manuals for gang destruction. I remember how important the Army thought is was to ID and Kill the Leadership with Snipers. Some mention of Parabolic Microphones like you see at Foot Ball Games to pick out individual conversations out of the noise to ID the Leadership.

      At Ft Bragg I was allowed to try out one that had a built in Laser to point out for the Shooters the primary targets. I think I saw them being used in the Videos of the Baltimore Riots but there the police were ordered to stand down.

      Why would the Army be so careful to ID and shoot the Alpha and Beta Leadership in a Gang INSTEAD of using a few Machine guns or such? Gangs are smart enough to USE crowds and even direct Riots as to provide cover for their actions. Hosing down a Angry Crowd with machine gun fire MIGHT disperse that crowd BUT it also might Generate a Mindless MOB.

      More than a few South American Countries have had their Governments destroyed by a machine gunned crowd turning into a City Destroying MOB.

  25. Ken I was thinking about the title of this thread “gangs will rule over the cities” and the scenario you described in the first sentence of “Full on SHTF Social Collapse”.

    First thought Gangs are parasites on the body of society they produce nothing of value. Or for the nit pickers they do not produce food or clean water. More on this later.

    Second thought Cities are for the most part FOOD Deserts. They require daily deliveries of food to keep everybody fed. Doubters should look at what happens in Grocery Stores when a major storm interrupts truck deliveries for a day or two.

    Third thought although most cities were built on major rivers or large bodies of water they have so polluted it so badly as to require massive water purification and those systems as well as sewage treatment plants require power and regular deliveries of chemicals to make the water safe for drinking. As many are aware water purification plants USE the Just In Time system to carry only a reasonable amount of those often dangerous chemicals in the system. I read somewhere that most cities have weekly deliveries of water processing chemicals delivered.

    Fourth thought as lack of water or the effects of bad water will harm you long before lack of food, something about 3 days or so?

    Last thought Do you think Truckers will be delivering water purification chemicals to the cities in a Gang Ruled SHTF scenario? I personally think the Gangs will have NOTHING to Rule over in about a week. So I expect the gangs in order to remain “Alive” will have to go out of the city looking for water, food and entertainment.

    Ideas? Input?

    Hope is not a plan

  26. I am unsure about a gang ruling the cities, per se, but I believe they will ‘contribute’ a very negative and deadly impact in the larger, more populated cities.

    Organized gangs, and small thug-gangs that are armed, should be considered real threats to everyone, including LEOs. They don’t live by the laws, and they don’t value life — except when it directly affects them personally. Even then, they have such an aggressive mindset that most of us really can’t comprehend just how much of a threat gangs will be. I agree with Chuck Findlay and how law-abiding citizens are not vigilantes at this time, due to the rules of our laws. However, in a real SHTF situation, when life is on-the-line, the average armed citizen will take a very different approach to these sub-human criminals.

    Gang threats will be VERY different than threats from desperate Americans. The Golden Horde, as originally defined by Rawles as being a phenomenon that will occur in the major cities where a mass exodus of people will migrate into the surrounding countryside. The Golden Horde isn’t a mass of gang-members, nor is it a MOB. A Golden Horde, as discussed at Rawles’ SurvivalBlog, is a migration-mass of people leaving a city for a different location in the hopes of finding survival to be easier. A mass migration isn’t a mob, nor should it be viewed as a city’s worth of armed citizens or gang members that will come to your neighborhood and scare the S out of what hit-the-fan!

    That said, I thought I’d do a bit of digging to further this topic. I found an interesting article, not one that I completely agree with, but worthy of reading. (I will post the link in another comment.) I believe it is worth the time to understand what others perceive as ‘threats’ as it relates to human behavior because we would all be affected by a SHTF event in one way or another.

    I also looked at the populations of the top cities so I will post a few of them with a link for others to check the remainder of the largest cities.
    New York 8.75 million
    L.A. 4.22 million
    Chicago 2.83 million
    Houston 2.46 million
    Phoenix 1.65 million
    Phila 1.58 million
    San Antonio 1.56 million
    San Diego 1.41 million
    Dallas 1.41 million
    San Jose 1.1 million
    Austin 1.0 million
    Jacksonville 975K

    So in just these ten largest cities in the US, 4 of them are in Texas, with a total of 6.8 million people. And NYC is still larger than those 4 cities! Guess which places would be the absolute WORST to be living around??

    So, back to that article….the author tossed out a what-if possibility of 10% of a city’s population migrating out: that would be the golden horde, or a phase of the golden horde. If we considered NYC, that would be a migration of 800,000 people leaving that city on the hopes that they could survive by moving elsewhere. They would not leave en masse, but in small groups — but such a migration WOULD have an effect in surrounding areas. People leaving NYC would be unarmed and many would be travelling by foot because NYC is a mass-transit metro zone. Unless these migrants were able to buy/barter for a firearm, their chances of being armed (and with adequate ammo) are slim. Could they buy/trade for a car? How far would they get? Would they be successful in their journeys? No one knows the answers to these questions because we have no US contemporary events to study. We could look at the migrations of the 1800s or the migratory behaviors from the Depression era. But there were so many varying factors from those eras. And besides, our history books have suppressed the body-counts of those who actually died from malnutrition, starvation, and disease.

    Personally, I don’t want to be near a migratory path of desperate people. But it is the gangs that pose the biggest human threat, imo.

    1. Is it Crazy to Worry About the Golden Horde?
      theprepperjournal.com/2014/08/28/crazy-worry-golden-horde

      Largest U.S. Cities 2018 (2017 End Year Results) — These cities are listed from two sources: Census.Gov and WorldBank.Org

      listchallenges.com/largest-us-cities-2017-so-far

    2. Mass hordes of people are something I believe will become a reality very fast in a serious SHTF scenario. As soon as the supplies run out people are going to flee in search of resources. I decided the risk was too great and decided to move far away massive population centers. I am about 450 miles (Direct Distance) from any metro population of over 250k. I feel that geographic isolation is going to be the best insulation against desperate people.

    3. When it comes to cities populations, don’t just look at the numbers they claim to be the populations of a particular city. Yes, for instance Houston has over 2 million in the city but Houston also has an additional 4 million surrounding the city. That’s over 6 million. Chicago for instance has surrounding towns that are not classified as ‘Chicago’ but still add a significant population to the total in the region. You can leave Chicago (the city) and travel from town to town without ever knowing where Chicago ended and the towns started due to the built up nature of the area.

    4. The Golden Horde may be a thing in Rawles mind but history in The Us (the 1930’s) says different. During the depression people moved to the cities, not away from them. Cities were (and still in) where the money was and is and people need money.

      I think The Golden Horde is great for prepper fiction writing, but I question it being an issue in real life.

      I also think people i n cities will sit and wait for daddy government to come and take care of them. But given a week or so all the resources will be used up to the point that fuel will be gone so no horde of autos.

      Food will be about gone so no horde of people on foot as walking all day takes food and energy.

      Most city people will simply not be able to go anyplace as the means to travel just won’t be there by the time they figure out government is not going to help.

      1. Chuck, I don’t believe in ‘the Golden Horde’ either. Like you said, makes great fiction.

      2. Chuck while I am NOT defending the Golden Horde idea just a little research if you do not mind :-)

        A few posts above this one I spoke about how lack of safe water and food would make cities Uninhabitable Food Deserts. I looked up how far the “Average” food travels to get to your plate 1500 miles. Yes we can survive quite well with out grapes from say Chile my point is the migration TOWARDS the Cities in the 1930’s for food and jobs WAS supported by the factors of LOCAL Farms supporting those cities as well as Compared to Current Levels a LOT LOWER Population density.

        Those Farms have long been overrun by Suburbs and higher population densities have made massive water purification and sewage treatments a MUST to avoid diseases and death.

        Folks in the city awaiting a Governmental Savior will be in a race between death by bad water or death at the hands of the most dangerous animal on Earth a Hungry/Angry/Scared HUMAN.

        While I agree that a MASSIVE number of them will die in place (And what a nasty disease creating place it will be) the smarter Gangs and hungry groups of people will escape the cities seeing Water, Food, Shelter and such.

        For my group a “Golden Horde” of about 100 hungry unreasonable people would be a disaster. Not the level Rawles was talking about eh? A Gang of about a dozen would also be a lot of trouble for us.

        Just a thought. I welcome ideas on how to reduce the hazard of these UNINVITED Guests.

        Pray for the Republic that we may have more time to prepare for Hard Times.

      3. – Chuck, MT, NHM –
        Really don’t believe in Rawles’ ‘Golden Horde’ either. should they attempt to come from either of the two cities (appx. 1 M each with outliers) within range (50 and 70 miles) They will constrained by water availability to one of two watercourses each way. Very few other sources and those can be disabled with a pair of pliers. In addition to not being able to shoot, the average gang member does not know not to sh*t where he drinks. One man with a varmint rifle, and a couple of booby traps, and they won’t want to come our way. I think a high level of attrition can be expected early on.

        Of course, I could be wrong. Therefore, I prep.
        -Papa S.

        1. – Historically, Great Depression, Argentina, Venezuela, the Balkans, Greece, when SHTF, everyone runs TO the cities because that’s where the money, food, whatever is.
          – Papa

          1. Papa Smurf did you read my post about why History in this case will not repeat? A Modern City is a Food Desert Bad Water guaranteed and a large amount of folks lacking any form of civility.

            I would enjoy your thoughts Pro or Con.

            I expect most will be trapped there waiting too long to escape and thus will die. The smarter gangs will be a problem as well as random groups that escape the city with a very short range of operations.

            Again your thoughts please? In addition to your varmint rifle could I suggest either a couple of junk cars immobilized to block easy driving access. MY Booby trap involves those junk cars catching fire as they try to move them from the road. Junk cars full of burning tires will take a VERY long time to cool off.

            I was previously advocating a chainsaw until some of my tribe demonstrated how easy it was for a group to move them.

            Always eager to learn some new information or viewpoint that will give my tribe an extra edge.

          2. NHM
            Get the chainsaw.
            If what you’re thinking is to block a road, driveway?
            Any obstruction slows down any predator, whether they can move that obstruction or not. Even if they can serpentine thru. Just don’t block yourselves in.
            There are several large trees that could block my road and on either side is full of trees and the only open area is my field in direct line of vision of my house.
            Just a thought

          3. NH Michael: I agree with Papa to a degree; that the city will be the center, but not that they will run to it as they will already be there. The typical scenario is a mob waiting for the food and water trucks to arrive and then they surround it and grab whatever is tossed to them and then fight for the crumbs. They do not know there is food out there in the fields and they do not know how to harvest it or what to do with it.
            As an aside, I was involved in trying to get our local food pantry to accept fresh produce from local gardens and they refused it as they said people didn’t know what to do with it. They didn’t know how to prepare fresh carrots, cabbage, cucumbers, spinach, etc. So what do they want? The food pantry was having a fund raiser to buy freezers because the customers demanded frozen pizzas and meat.

            Here is my assumption: throngs of hungry pillagers would have no idea what to do in a field of cabbage, beets, kohlrabi, peppers, lettuce, radishes…. they would head back to the city and scavenge dumpsters and wait for the government food trucks. My assumption is based on what has and is happening in places like Venezuela today.

        2. – NH Michael –
          I’ve been told the same thing as Old Chevy mentions by a couple of organizations. I really don’t have high hopes for our gang members to improve their IQ scores in just a couple of weeks time. I like your old cars/tires, trees won’t work for me. We just don’t have enough to make a difference. We are well supplied with mining/blasting materials in this area, and there is no shortage of clothespins, plastic spoons, and wires. It is a shame to waste perfectly good 9-volt batteries, though. (spent part of my youth blasting tree stumps to clear a future lake bottom.)
          – Papa S.

  27. If it ever gets that bad…everyone shall die…no matter where you are, no matter where you flee, no matter what steps you may take. It is all just a matter of when. All the initial die offs, the largest ones, are simply the first of the die offs, which will be followed in waves of smaller die offs caused by various factors, such as location, survivor density, and season. Finally, after most of the population is dead…having been in conflict with the elements and other people…the few hardy survivors, the lucky few…standing guard over their domains, will being to notice their gums start to bleed and how they feel weaker, and are always feeling nauseous. And, shortly thereafter, the last tribe of survivors die.

  28. The historical evolution of gangs is that they learn how to attain political power. During prohibition the mobs ran the liquor industry, after it was repealed they became the distributorships. Mexican drug cartels started out as neighborhood gangs, now they are in control of many local and perhaps the national government. In this country the slave industry was replaced by emancipation which was subverted by the Democrat party, which has become the most notorious and wicked, sick, gang in our history. An enlightening read is Dinesh Souza’s book: “Stealing America: What My Experience with Criminal Gangs Taught Me about Obama, Hillary, and the Democrat Party”.

    Stealing America: What My Experience with Criminal Gangs Taught Me about Obama, Hillary, and the Democratic Party

  29. Ken is absolutely right. Add to the fact that no one ever talks about what will happen when there is WROL (without rule of law), and all these prisoners who are locked up bust out.

    As far as gangs go, they will be doing most of their dirty work at NIGHT. If you have the means, purchase a PVS-14 night vision monocular and a weapons-mounted IR laser targeting device. (Infrared). If you really want to get serious, buy a thermal optic. These items are incredible force multipliers, and will allow you to engage threats, and operate in total darkness. They are not cheap by any stretch. You can get a fairly nice used vehicle for the price of some of the thermal scopes that are on the market. But, one needs to ask himself, “How much is my life, or the lives of my family members worth?” With one or both of these items, at least you’ll have a fighting chance if you have to remain in the city.

    If you can afford these items, the most important thing is to train, train, TRAIN with them, as often as possible!

      1. Ken
        Looked at those pieces of equipment to see what might fit into the budget. I like the Cadillac model (of course) but will have to settle for the one that is less expensive units.

  30. Look at the way drug cartels operate in mexico. Also look at the fact that there vigilantes that have become weary of such behavior and have decided to make a stand. I do believe gangs will be a problem in especially big cities. I also think there will be areas they will avoid because of negative hospitality.

  31. I guess it is time we step up and work to unite all the groups that support our Constitution. I’m not sure of the numbers of patriots that all the groups like Oath Keepers, biker patriots, law enforcement, military, NRA, …. and many more, that groups would total. But it would be a big gang in defense of our country. Would all these splinter groups be willing to join forces or does each want to protect their turf/control/revenue? Who has the leadership skills to organize communication and strategies against the rats in our society?
    Or do each of us just hide as has happened repeatedly throughout history “first they came for … and I did not speak out …” as we get picked off one by one.

  32. Will our/my/your group of Patriots, defending their territory/family/preps be any less dangerous than the “supposed” gangs coming to kill us? I don’t think so.

  33. Guess I will chime in …
    For some of the newer folks here.
    First,I have a group of 32 members now.
    I interact with 4 other groups locally. 6 others in other locations.
    We have been in SHTF MODE for almost 2 years. Meaning,we have prepared and trained for 2 years .
    My S.O’s background is in the teams. 4 others similar backgrounds. We train for the top 5%.
    We utilize electronics to push our security window to over 15 miles.
    Meaning,we can see what’s coming 15 miles out on the roads. All on my laptop 24/7.
    Have a couple high end drones as well for reconnaissance. All the night vision stuff as well.
    Our biggest assets are the relationships I have built especially in the last 2 years.
    We are known as the go to people if you need an extra hand or need a repair done. Never talk about payment ever. There to help. Most people though always want give something or barter. Whatever it is we gladly accept it. It’s never about the getting it’s always about the relationship building.
    Without it I never would of been privy to the parcels of land available next to mine that my boys bought.
    I wouldn’t know which bad characters live in the area. The biggest was the Doctor/Surgeon who semi retired here to take care of his teenage daughter. He is the best kept secret in the area.
    Point is,when the time comes we know who will stand and fight. Who will need protection (the Doc).
    Who will be invited to take a dirt nap.(harsh but neccessary. )
    Understand the bad guys know the value of relationships and resources.
    You need to know it as well.
    Try to write more later…

    1. Bill Jenkins Horse, I am impressed friend! Your group has more high tech items that my tribe.

      I thought we are doing well with some hobby drones able to dump bear spray while using Night Vision. You guys rock.

      Glad to see you have been building relationships as they are critical in surviving Venezuela style situations. Nobody have do everything well and trading requires Trust. That and knowing who to watch out for is very valuable.

      I wish we could get the lone wolves here to establish trusted allies. You have to sleep sometime.

      You made my evening! Thanks BJH

  34. Just listened to the AG of Florida saying something like 11,000 known gang members in Florida alone. Not counting the ones in prison. So how many country wide? When this blows, we will have the fight for our lives everywhere.

  35. Gangs? My opinion? I do not like them…There are a few of them that would like to know where I am…The existence of gangs is why I maintain a low profile to this day.

    Twice in my life I have had to relocate for my own safety and maintenance of my sanity. Every person you shoot probably has a family and associates both in prison and outside. By shooting one, you bring down the focus of their anger upon you and your household.

    Back when I shot a few people here in Mainland USA, I was fortunate enough to be told by LASO gang enforcement officers that there was a bounty out on me and that I had been “Green Lighted”. ( Open Season on my head.). I exited So Cal shortly thereafter as I was not going to wait for a small scale human wave attack while out shopping at Safeway.

    I was single then so I delayed moving until it was almost too late. A friend of mine was shot in her driveway as she was loading her duffle bag and briefcase in the trunk of her car for work. A husband was shot while driving in the early morning hours on his way into work. Now I have a wife and a bunch of fat cats waiting for me to get home and use that can opener.

    Are gangs a roving threat? I have seen they are largely territorial though they can and do form alliances. If they stray from their territory, I believe they will stay within a 1/2 tank of gas for their motor vehicles.

    Smaller groups foraging? Not likely unless it is a hunter/killer team with prior military training with all members being comfortable out running their supply chain. Similar structure to a squad concept of a Marine Rifle Team. Such team would be going after a designated target. ( Like ME!?!).

    Would a household stand a chance? I am not sure everybody in my household is on board fully and completely. All I can do is to put some distance between myself and my loved ones and take out as many as I can before being taken down myself. Surviving a gunfight entails a certain amount of luck and I have trained with the thought that the person who draws on me is just as serious about their job as I am. I do not count on my assailant to be a sloppy, rank amateur.

    Since relocating, this issue has not come up. I still keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground these days and I research an unfamiliar patch on the local MC’s in my area. Gangs have always existed within society. They are alive and well today and they are firmly in control of the black and gray market these days.

    ( if you do not believe me, try trying to break into the illegal drug trade, protection racket or prostitution in your nearest large city. Your eyes will be opened.)

  36. “Mobs”
    Again – Chicago.

    Last weekend, as another 60 or so mostly gang related g u n violence incidents took place, and more were killed, injured, and families devastated, did you hear that there was also mob violence?

    According to americanthinker dot com, it was the fourth time this year that a wilding mob happened in Chicago. High-end shopping mall, attacks on property and people by urban youth, public transportation was disrupted, and one teen was arrested for attacking a LEO. I imagine this would happen in a full-on WROL situation, but if no electronic communications perhaps a bit more slowly or without so many. Also would expect anarchists, antifa, and the like to instigate similar violence on their usual targets. That is until they get hungry. Then I wonder, would they head home, fade away, or tear every structure down looking for what they want?

    I think Chuck Findlay is on to something. While folks with the means and an understanding of what a long-term disaster means for the cities might head out of town early on, most will head in. That’s where there is a known concentration of federal/state/local services, most churches and schools will be used for shelters, food distribution and charity-run soup kitchens will be set up where folks are concentrated. And that’s where medical facilities are already located.

    OTOH, lots of the eastern seaboard and coastal gulf area folks are used to taking off and running inland when hurricane disaster is imminent. Midwesterners hunker down in the nearest place possible and stay put during tornado outbreaks. Wonder, would those be the patterned responses to a nonweather crisis?

  37. Wanted to ask everyone, Who/What is the largest “Gang” in the US?

    Hells Angles, Banditos, M13, Street Gangs of Chicago, Cartel, the Italian Mob?
    Here is a little hint, 10 letters, begins with a “G” and ends with a “t”.

    Think about it;
    Do they not now steal from ALL of us, and use it as they please? (Taxes)
    Do they not make millions of regulations to control EVERYONE? (Laws)
    Do they not have ‘camps’ and use fear to control the people? (Prisons)
    Do they not regulate literally everything, including the way we are to think? (Schools)
    Do they not control the information we are feed? (News/Internet)
    Do they not TAKE land and ownership as they need for the better good? (Land Seizure)
    Do they not make sure they are the best armed and kept armed force? (Military)
    Do they not provide for themselves FIRST and have “retreats for when TSHTF? (Bunkers)
    Do they not control all the food and medical resources? (FDA)
    Do they not know literally everything about YOU!!!! ? (NSA/DHS)

    I could go on and on, but my point is we ALL have already been overrun by the most uncontrolled wicked “Gang” and we willingly allow them to run out lives unconditionally as they TAKE and TAKE and TAKE for “our better good”

    And sorry all, if TSHTF they WILL eventually find you and TAKE everything you have, resist and they WILL ship you off to a “Camp” (just ask the Japanese and American Indian) or they will put you in a Box 6’ under as in many MANY occurrences in recent history.

    So yes we all commented about the “Gangs” overrunning us if TSHTF, ya might about that when several Black Hummers and a Duce and ½ come rolling up your driveway looking for supplies to “feed the masses”.

    Think it won’t happen to your neighborhoods? Sure hope you’re right.

    Please remember “I’m from the government and I’m here to help.” Spoken from a PRESIDENT (Ronald Reagan 40th president of US).

    Think maybe he know a LOT more about the G——-t GANG than we do?

    1. Agreed; although some might discount this as cynicism it is right on-on-the-money. So important to know the significance of our constitution – that is guaranteed our rights not by giving them, but by restricting government from denying them.

      1. Old Chevy – on a rustic road;
        I agree, the Constitution, it seems, is the only thing keeping this Gang from completely overrunning us all.
        What’s even more shocking is how many millions of people want to disregard the Constitution and turn 100% Socialist.
        Makes one wonder how far they would go to get their way? Fry the Power Grid for example and declare Martial Law nullifying the Constitution? Anyone here really think Soros, Clintons, TPTB, and the Deep State have not though about doing that?
        Just food for thought all. Just food for thought.

    2. NRP ,,,,,,,GOOD POST ,,,,,,,,you would fit in at the gulch ,,,,, any place to land a STOL?

      Tea and chocolate

      1. 0ldhomesteader;
        Ahhhh yeah, plenty of runoff room, but ya better make that a C-5M Super Galaxy for all the stuff I’d bring HAHAHAHA
        Shine and Mator-sandwich time :-)

      2. Oldhomesteader,
        There is a military ramp at GJO that handles the Ospreys. FYI. Head south 100 miles, look for the Orange river and follow it out of the mountains. NRP should be down there someplace. Just turn on your TP locator and I am sure you will have his QTH!

        1. Minerjim;
          “Just turn on your TP locator and I am sure you will have his QTH!”
          HAHAHA, that’s a good one old man.. LOLOL
          BTW, is 600 rolls really enough? Just ask San Farce-Cisco. :-( :-(

          1. NRP ,,,,,,,I know just the job for you at the valley ,,,,,,KEEPER OF THE. T P at the trading post ,,,,,,,

            The STOL only needs300ft and a clear way out ,,room for you and blue ,,,,,,,,,

          2. oldhomesteader I HAVE to ask given the SF Poop Patrol still on my mind…

            Do you have a Toilet Paper making set up there or what is your plan for TP when the warehouse empties out?

            Serious question as I am open for ideas. My tribe is using bidet and family cloths.

          3. NH MICHAEL ,,,,the cost of production for TP makes it impractical to make it ,,,,on any real scale ,,for a small group it could be done ,,,,,buying by a semi trailer load is more practical ,,it’s easy to store ,,and keeps for years , dry and mouse free ,,,
            May be some time I can go into homemade TP

          4. 0ldhomesteader;
            “KEEPER OF THE. T P” Ohhhh yeah, that’s a GREAT job to list on my resume HAHAHA
            300′, hell me driveway is 1/4 mile with 2 drums of Av-Gas sitting in the shed at the home end :-) :-)

          5. Ken I read your article nice. Do we have an Index of the many useful articles you have in MSB? I have used the search option. Useful IF you know a Key Word.

            I NOTICED that Lambs Ear OTHER Great Use!

            It’s an very effective Blood STOPPING Wound Covering.

            I Do grow it but find it too slow growing to sustain even myself and my beloveds TP Needs.

            I grow it in my Medical Garden along with Mullen.

    3. NRP
      Agree 100%
      Government is currently the biggest threat to the average Joe or Jane,,,,
      I never said i would protect nor defend the government nor their employees, i did however swear to do thus to the words written on that other piece o paper soooo many seem to think is out dated,,,,

  38. Were we live, we do not have to worry about ‘golden horde’ or masses of hungry people. What worries me are possible ‘roving bands’ of people coming in at odd times of the day. (I gotta sleep sometime). Also, as NRP noted, there will be factions of the G—t maybe out looking in our agricultural area for food for their people. But, I do not think that they will be going ‘house to house’ to raid Mom and Pop’s canned goods. they will be looking for silos, and warehouses of bulk food storage. Once those are raided, the PTB will move on. I am so glad God blessed me with the chance to live out here, away from the masses of people. I feel sorry for all of you that have to ‘bug in’ in a major city, or East of the Mississippi, or along the Left Hand coast. You will have tough times, although I agree with Chuck Findlay and NHM, I do not think you are going to see a huge mass of people ‘moving’ to a ‘safer place’. People tend to hunker down in a place they know, especially city people. ( from what I can tell, city people are somewhat frightened of being out in the country, unfamiliar places).
    To those of you who are presently stuck in the city, but dream and plan of moving out I leave you with this thought : You can do it! It took me many years to get where I am now. I could have gotten here faster if I had made it my primary focus, and if I had started praying about it a lot sooner. God knows and loves his children and wants to hear from them and help them. He will hold you up and provide you with what you need. Prepare for the worse, pray for Peace.

  39. MInerjim;
    “You can do it! It took me many years to get where I am now.”

    I agree 1000%, took me (and wife) 1 year to dump everything we had in CA, and get the help out of there back in 1981.

    BEST thing I ever did, and yes the wife was the push behind getting out.
    Second best thing, was the change of Lifestyle, people roll their eyes when I mention the “Lifestyle” but they have NO idea the comfort it brings and the pleasures of living with Nature, Sounds stupid? GOOD, just stay in that infested City than.

    BUT for a lot of us here, we’d not trade this life for anything you could offer. I wonder why….. HAHAHAHA

  40. Hey all,
    What is being kept low key about the “poop” in the streets of these cities?
    The myriad of diseases that are found in the samples taken. It should be treated as biohazard. Odds are it’s getting washed down the gutters of these cities. People walking through it bringing it into their work areas and homes. Buses and car floors teeming with hepatitis and e coli…
    But you can’t hurt people’s feelings or ask them to change bad behavior. That’s just mean spirited!
    Just wait for epidemics busting out all over. It’s coming.
    That’s why social distancing will be important.
    Outsiders bringing in diseases/illnesses you are not ready for .(like what happened to the American Indians for example. )
    I wrote about that a while back. Had friends show up for a visit who were sick.
    Spread to our whole group. Nasty cold/flu strain that would of been totally disastrous in a full on SHTF situation .
    Just another nail in the country’s coffin being hammered in…

    1. Bill Jenkins Horse;
      Ahhhh heck dude, that’s nothing, how about this
      “San Francisco hands out 4.45 million needles each year”
      Geeeeee I wonder where all those go?

      AND what all is on them, HIV/AIDS???

      Here’s another for ya-all
      “To combat the problem, the health department sends out crews who pick up about 8,000 needles per month off the streets.”

      Why worry about Gangs when you have the GOVERMENT handing out 4.45 MILLION needles a YEAR!!!!!!!! IN ONE CITY!!!!!!!!!!!

      One more while I’m at it, ok?
      “SF Director of Health Barbara Garcia estimated in 2016 that San Francisco has about 22,000 intravenous drug users, about one per every 38.49 residents based on a rough 2016 population of 846,816.”

      You bet-ya, that’s a GREAT place to live.

      1. NRP
        Those are the “progressive” policies hard at work for the taxpayers,,,,
        Pffttt”$#+€’n

      2. BJH &NRP
        What a lovely place NOT to be!!

        Drugs,,, pooping in the streets, no punishments for this type of behavior no wonder San Fran is a cesspool.

    2. Bill Jenkins Horse as I mentioned before FAILURES of Socialism LIKE San Fran Poop Patrol and Chicago Shootings are buried by the media. Otherwise would they not be Great Talking Points for Non-Socialists?

      Can I hope you have establish the Medical Isolation Tent for Guests during the SHTF?

      Training for combat can be fun but training for Sanitation is not very fun.

      Praying for the Republic.

      1. NH Michael ,
        We have protocols in place and a quarantine area.
        A hard lesson learned…

        1. BJH I am very happy to hear that my friend. We need good people to rebuild our Republic and as you know Disease is the #1 destroyer of human lives.

          Have you TESTED your BACKUP System when your often forgotten septic system fails due to overuse? Septic systems are designed to handle a certain # of adult humans waste over it’s expected lifetime. There IS some overload capacity processing but I have seen some nasty situations were too many families in ONE house overloaded the leech field. NOT Too many Pumping Trucks available when SHTF. Processing human waste and keeping our washing water processed properly helps us prevent Cholera and other fly born diseases from sickening and killing our people.

          Again Shooting can be fun but Sanitation keeps the dream of America alive.

          As a more positive note HOW will be able to tell Possible Friendlies from Gang Members after the great die off? Not like we wear uniforms? During the Battle of the Bulge SS Troopers were wearing US Uniforms and carrying American Weapons. GI’s used knowledge of BASEBALL to ferret out the Fakers. I often wonder how many American Soldiers lacking interest in Baseball died then.

          People my tribe choose to talk with after the SHTF better have a good working knowledge of the Constitution.

          Your thoughts? Your group seems far better developed than mine.

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