The Golden Horde – Redirecting & Misdirection

The Golden Horde

First, Who is or What is the “Golden Horde”?

While the phrase originally came from the ancient Mongols who overran eastern Europe in the 13th Century, the prepper community uses the phrase as follows:

“The “Golden Horde” is (are) the anticipated throngs of unorganized and organized individuals, groups, and ‘gangs’ who will be out roaming, searching, and even looting & pillaging for food and supplies following a major widespread societal and infrastructural collapse – without the rule of law.”

There’s a lot of varying opinion regarding the possibilities and probabilities of a Golden Horde, and how far (or not so far) they might get from any given population center. (I’ve written a number of articles on the subject over the years.)

A few teasers:
Safer Survival Distance From USA City Hordes
The Zombie Hordes Distance From Cities

That said, under extreme conditions of desperation without hope of external “help”, some will give up as they weaken, while others will desperately extend outward on the prowl for food, supplies, and whatever they need. Still others will individually or by group take advantage of ‘without rule of law’ because they are who they are. It will be dangerous times indeed.

I don’t want to get into the debate about the likelihood or unlikelihood of the Golden Horde itself, or how far they might get. There are lots of variables that may affect this including population density, regional – geographical and other factors.

However let’s assume for this topic of discussion that there are “hordes” of varying numbers who are prowling for supplies in your region.

The question is, how might the Golden Horde be misdirected or redirected so as to lesson your chances of an encounter or being overrun and pillaged?

And let me preface this by saying:
I hope this type of situation never happens!


Efforts to Avoid the Golden Horde

I have read my share of novels within this genre. (Check our Survival Library for a number of good reads). The thing is, when the issue of confrontation with the Golden Horde (or variants thereof) comes up, there’s always a shooting war involved.

While a physical confrontation may be a last resort, and perhaps unavoidable under some circumstances, one would think that all efforts should be made to avoid the chance of confrontation to begin with. When the bullets start flying, no matter how you look at it, it’s life and death probabilities on either side. What if your side takes losses or loses?

So…once again, how might this be avoided, misdirected or redirected?

‘CR’ from the blog recently commented,

“SHTF and WROL.” “The Golden Horde may in fact be looting and causing general mayhem. Myself, I am hoping people remain civilized for the most part. Looters and angry mobs can become very ugly in short order if unchecked.”

I agree with the hoping part (although not actionable itself), and I also agree that “angry mobs” can (and likely will) become very ugly – quickly. Desperate people will likely do desperate things. Especially if their very survival is dependent upon it.

If there is any possibility of a Golden Horde in your area, no matter how large or small the groups themselves, one might consider a plan of action (and a backup plan) just in case.


How many are in the Golden Horde?

Work out scenarios for each of a number of hypothetical group sizes.

There will be individuals by themselves. There will be small groups of just a few or several. There may be larger, more organized groups of squad size up to a dozen individuals. There may even be larger ‘platoon’ size units say up to 30 or so… And so on. You get the idea.

Having said that, my own opinion is this:

Initially as people’s supplies run out, there may be individuals and small groups who will forage out in search of supplies for survival. Some will scavenge what they need from what may be naturally available. Some will approach others for help and handout. Still others will become more desperate, demanding, and forceful. A terrible time indeed where some or many will do whatever they need to do to survive.

As time goes on, there will be the ruthless element who will establish their own groups, tribes, gangs. Some of the desperate will join up with the promise of a ‘piece of the pie’. They will be a dangerous force for sure.


Misdirect & Redirect the Golden Horde

Okay I’ve already written 700 words and still have not gotten into “how” to redirect or misdirect the mobs. So let’s get into it.

First, they will likely and initially prey on the easiest targets. Especially the individuals and small groups. They will be looking first for easy opportunity. Why? Because no one wants to put themselves into undue danger. Even the looters themselves.

That said, deterrents will be just that: deterrents. That’s what you need.

Be Invisible

The best deterrent in this context is to be invisible. You do not exist. You, or your place. No one can see it. That’s not to say they won’t stumble across it, but if they can’t see it from their routes of travel, they won’t even know there’s an opportunity.

Being invisible to the Golden Horde might be literal (out of sight) or figurative (eliminating invitation while in plain sight).

Literally out of sight

Ideally your ‘place’ is out of sight from primary and even secondary routes of travel. I’m just pointing out that comparatively it’s probably safer in this regard to be “off the beaten path”. Not to say however that you won’t be found. So don’t convince yourself that you’re safe.

For example, I happen to live at the end of a private dirt road completely out of sight from anyone. However common sense indicates that ANY road is a clue that ‘something’ is down there… I’m not fooling myself into thinking that I would not be affected. Fortunately however I live very far away from population density and in a town less than 1,000 – many of whom are living a lifestyle on the side of self reliance. But that was the plan when searching for this place…

But I know that I’m not immune from issues should there be a terrible collapse of infrastructure and distribution. Why? Because I know that most are not adequately prepared for it. I too only have so much to go around from my storage. I can grow a fairly significant amount of food, but we’re talking full time and how many will it feed? How many others are going to be able to do that?

When Resupply Breaks Down

– If you have a garden, is it in sight?
– If it’s summer or fall, people will be ransacking gardens for sure.

Minimizing or Eliminating Invitation

Many or most people live where there are plenty of neighbors. Suburbia. Even out in rural areas many people still have visible neighbors and can be seen from the street.

While there may be little (or much less) you can do to deter a large organized horde rummaging systematically through an area, you might be able to misdirect smaller groups or individuals a bit more easily (or at least avoid unintentional invitation).

Again, the individual or small groups will be looking for easy opportunity. So make it hard.

You might approach this from two different viewpoints. One is that of “graying out” your abode. To dully blend in or to appear non advantageous. The other is to present threat of force such that they’ll move along.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Blending in.
For example on one hand you might say that a place that appears to be nondescript or even abandoned, this in itself may be an invitation for “lookers” who feel they’re safe to check it out because of the appearance of no activity. One never knows what one might find there, right?

On the other hand, maybe that same place will be overlooked because there are no indicators of value there. How one accomplishes this appearance gets into the creative. And there’s no guarantee that it will work.

Threat of force.
On one hand you might say that the appearance of a defensible fortress will likely deter most individuals and small groups.

On the other hand it most certainly signals that there are supplies to be had there. You may be opening yourself up to the possibility of word spreading and maybe even a larger attempt. But maybe not, depending on your own region.

The Right Combination

There will be no absolute solution to this dilemma. What may be effective in one area might not in another.

I’m of the general opinion that being ‘grayed out’ and unremarkable is preferred, while at the same time being backed up with a strong defensible position. Plus, a backup plan to bug out (even just temporarily) if things get out of hand (no sense dying over ‘stuff’). You could have cache’s elsewhere to get you by.

There’s nothing to see here. Move along…

– Noise. Don’t make it. It will “attract”.
– Smells. The aromas of cooking may carry a long way.
– Smoke. It can be seen and smelled. Wood stove?
– Solar panels. They will be a commodity. Can you see them from the street?
– Light. At night it’s quite visible through windows.
– Supplies in plain view? Hide them.

Security patrol
You’re going to need it.

– Enough people to do shifts?
– Night Vision Device. A game changer and force multiplier.
– Have a security plan?
– Adequate hardware.

When It Hits The Fan – What You Have Will Be All There Is…

So now that I’ve got this topic going, let’s hear some of your specifics.

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  1. The old saying “Walk softly but carry a big stick” comes to mind. Be the gray man. Walk softly and don’t attract attention whether it be by sight, sound, or smells.
    Carry a big stick. You must have defensive plans if/when you are found out. The means, ability, and mindset to do what is necessary to defend family, friends, and property when a bad situation arises is going to be both mentally and physically challenging. When violence is directed towards you are you willing and able to do ANYTHING necessary to defend yourself or group. Are those in your group also willing and able? You will only be as strong as your weakest link. Being mentally and physically able to do violence and be wise enough to get the heck out of dodge when your group is overwhelmed is of utmost importance.
    Your mind can be your greatest weapon if you prep for the worst but it can also be your worst enemy if you panic. THINK!!!

  2. Wow, after reading your post Ken, I give up. Nah, just kidding, but this is a subject that very well could be discussed the rest of the week and still not cover the possibilities. I guessing that as I’m pondering my responses, so are everyone one else.

  3. A horde is not only looking for food and stuff, but for information. You live in an area where many become acquainted with you. They see your travels, your deliveries of materials, your purchases in town, your visits to the garden center, ….. so when pressed, your neighbors are forced to buy some favor or a life – yes we know there is a guy up the road who has a garden and stuff. Eventually, everyone talks.
    You may not be as grey as you wish.

    1. hermit us
      We buy everything 30 to a 100 miles out side the small town 7 miles away from home. Fuel lock card in South Carolina, food from a chain store 35 miles away. ( No shoppers card) Feed store four towns away at three different stores and never the same amount. Weapons and ammo over 125 miles away and use a address of another house we own under a different name.(land trust) All mail order goes to a buddy’s coin shop 40 miles away. Use different ways in and out of our home area, anyone can be gray with a little work.

  4. Like you Ken we have moved to a unremarkable property on a dirt road off of a county maintained road in hopes of being out of the way. No major city for 100 miles. Only two neighbors on either side, well armed homesteaders. We are surrounded by farms, which may become a target after the cities and towns are picked over, but are far more appealing targets before you get to our little acre of land. The dirt road is not a dead end which I see as an asset in case of bug out. Praying it never comes to that but preparing in case it does.

  5. I’ve given this a lot of thought in the context of my own subdivision.
    My immediate neighbors are preppers and shooters but I don’t know many other folks in the community. Should the big event happen, I’d gather one or two of my reliable friends and immediately visit each home in our sbdvsn. I’d invite everyone to a confab out in the street betwen Phase One and Phase Two.
    I would hope to institute a military-style watch system with patrols.
    There are two automobile entrances we’d need to watch. For the sbdvsn homes that back into woods, I’d want patrols to watch for infiltrators sneaking in that way. A 3-rapid shot alarm could summon help, if car horns weren’t available.
    Blocking the main entrances with cars and logging chains would be useful in deterring many horde-members.
    I don’t know how much enthusiasm I could whip up for this but it’s worth a try.

    For a good read on a system of deterrence/access control, read Lucifer’s Hammer by Jerry Pournelle and Larry Niven. In this story a comet strikes earth and a group of survivors holes up in the California hills.

    1. Mr. Grey can I suggest you invest in a dozen or so of loud whistles and laminated 5 x 8 cards of code for your defenders. While 3 rapid shots is an SOS signal why waste ammo for an alarm that somebody is over here. A series of long and short whistle blasts can convey need for help, on the way, remember to keep a 360 degree watch. If the bulk of your folks run over there who is watching the other side?

      1. Whistles just went on my shopping list (since I haven’t left the house since Nov. 7th) for this weekend.
        50s will likely get me out!!

  6. One has to consider horde’s of escaped convicts, gang bangers, outlaw bikers, thugs/drug addicts etc…. You are better taking them on, if one has too, by employing shoot n’ scoot tactics or sniping from a distance if your location is compromised. Try to whittle them down in numbers and they might get discourage and go elsewhere where the pickings are easier. It won’t get pretty out there when the SHTF…..

  7. First of all please do not think making your home “look Abandoned” “mock Burnt out” etc will get you a pass in a SHTF situation. Flooded truly abandoned homes in Katrina were stripped by Gimmie Dats and sad to say Police. Plus if you are hiding in your “abandoned” home you are giving THEM the chance to close in too close. Basically NOTHING in a modern home will stop a rifle bullet.

    Second Going Dark reduces the chance they will visit. However random groups can drop in for a visit. Make it INTERESTING for them as in Chinese Curse. Have a Defensive Plan! Know where you want to stop vehicles, get supplies to do so. Walk your property with an observer at your home or fighting site to map out routes folks can sneak up. Plan for an nasty surprise for them. Dual use items like Blackberries WITH Thorns (yes they sell thorn less) give you food and planned barriers. Stay 360 degrees in your planning. Determined folks can distract you here and climb over your high wall with barbed wire over there. Gangs and crazies are the hardest to stop.

    Know your people, as some of you know I have two 91 year old non effectives. Indeed I have planned a safe room so if they start yelling nobody outside can hear them and folks scheduled to care for them. The last thing you need is staying quiet for an ambush and have someone loudly shouting about something in the home.

    To best use shoot and scoot tactics you need advance warning they are coming and the ability to ambush them AWAY from your home and dependents. We are not War Fighters we are only as strong as the weak link. Who will protect our children if we are out there looking to ambush?

    Thus my suggestions to design defense in concentric layers with preplanned retreat routes and cover fire. In Bosnia they used Manikins dressed as shooters to draw fire. Some wire and fishing line can give the enemy a “Live Target” to draw fire so you can respond.

    Looking forward to listening to other suggestions.

    1. “””please do not think making your home “look Abandoned” “mock Burnt out” etc will get you a pass in a SHTF situation”””

      I have always thought this would encourage, not discourage raiders.

    2. NH Michael, BiH is an interesting place, but those tactics may not always work here. Cultural upbringing has a lot to do with making folks here in the US get off their duffs and use the partisan way of fighting : ) And yes, Sarajevo is nature wise a beautiful place even being shelled down to nothing.

  8. Much will depend on what degree the collapse/shtf event is. Much of my defensive mechanism would be predicated on what modes of transportation the “horde” has at their disposal and the speed that their depredation has progressed in the big cities. My remote location, by roads is 30 miles from a small town of around 2,000 population, 80 miles from a small city of 40,000 and 150 miles from the largest city in the state with a population of less than 200,000. I expect the “horde” will only leave their familiar hunting grounds after they’ve pillaged all available resources there. I can only imagine, having spent a career as a big city cop (million plus population) the chaos that will transpire in those environs.
    Rural folks, like my situation with about five households on a six mile stretch of unpaved county road, will have to cooperate and work for a mutual defense. We already do that now due to the fact our law enforcement response time is measured in hours not minutes. Prowler? You call a neighbor for backup, then the sheriff.
    Back to the subject of transportation. A good portion of the land surrounding my homestead has never been fenced and has some four wheeler trails that have been established over the years. If that method of transportation is still available, these trails will have to be dealt with. I live five miles down an unpaved road that connects to a two lane paved state “highway” that on average has 20-25 vehicles pass by the intersection with my road on any given day. I have maybe 2-3 vehicles go by my land on any given day (usually the same guy). Increased volume, vehicle or on foot, will be quickly noticed. My home sits about 150 yds off the county unpaved road. While the majority of my land is un-fenced, I have a perimeter fence along the road and surrounding my house not coming closer than 150 yds. Anyone I don’t know and trust will be challenged if they are on the wrong side of that fence. Anyone coming up behind my home will have already traversed about 4 miles of very inhospitable terrain to get there, which translates they are on a mission and better show me quickly that they have no ill intent. The approach to my house is fairly level within my fencing with a combination of woods and pasture. I keep the brush and undergrowth cleaned out except along the roads to direct foot traffic to these normally traveled paths and so I can detect them easily once there on my side of the briers and brambles. Hopefully full time security patrols will not be necessary. My plans right now (if it actually becomes necessary) is for night observation from camouflaged hides already established and heads on a swivel during daylight hours as we go about our activities. If absolutely called for, one hide gives me one mile command of the road leading to my location in both directions to observe an approaching sniper looking for his own hide. As conditions change, so will tactics.

    1. I failed to mention that the west and north sides of my level ground consists of dozier piles covered with inpenetrable blackberry bushes with one small maintained opening easily visible from our home.

  9. There will be different waves of “hordes” starting from the first day of SHTF onward. They will start with small peaceful numbers looking for a handout, grow over time as disparate people band together to scavenge/loot whatever. In time those hordes will dwindle either by splitting up or death. The real hard core violent ones come next, in smaller numbers. The angry/ violent loners.
    As Ken mentioned first, I think it would be best to be as “invisible” as possible. I have even thought of painting my house and barn so it looks like it is “burned out” from the road, black above the Windows and doors, maybe some broken windows hung over the good ones. Very quietly get with neighbors and set up road blocks in areas too difficult to short cut around. Destroy vital bridges, blast or push boulders onto a road. These road blocks should be meant to discourage people in all manner of speaking. I personally would not hesitate to even leave the bodies of a few looters strategically posed for effect. (Sorry, this is harsh and gross, but would have a big impact). For dealing with violent groups, I have to agree with what 21bravo said, and engage these groups at a distance with hit and run sniping, preferably towards dark or after dark. The idea is to make them realize their disadvantage and decide to leave quickly. (I have seen these farm boys hunt and shoot, would hate to be on the wrong side of them) Farms and homesteads would have to have round the clock guards doing check ins with base and with the neighbors. I think ideally a method of donating food through a local law enforcement agency in a nearby town would a good idea. Let disparate folks be drawn their first. I don’t think I could give a complete stranger a hand out and then tell him that I will shoot him if he comes back for more the next day. But it could come to that. Best tell him to go to town to get food distribution. Of course when you do make donations, you will have to be armed to the hilt and come off like you will shoot anyone who tries to follow you home. Lord I hope and pray it never gets this bad. Personally, I believe that in rural areas, people will work to help make sure everyone is fed. Cities I do not hold much hope for, they are Death Traps in a SHTF situation. Long term I think travel will be severely limited with armed road blocks, and the hordes will be checked.

  10. The greatest danger you will face will come from within five miles of your home. Think about it.

    1. I agree, even though we’re reasonably remote at the end of a mile and a half of gravel road, with only four other homes on it, these hills are home to plenty of meth heads and career welfare cheats. I’ve driven down some of the little roads, basically trails, and come on some places I won’t be going back to.

      The welfare cheats aren’t the foremost danger, although they could get violent I’m sure. The dopers are going to be the real problem, as they’re in their own little societies. Out of dope, out of food, desperate for both, I could reasonably expect a dozen or so forming a group.

      Our plan includes 10-12 people from the surrounding area, and three relatives if possible. That many people can stand security on shifts and still get the labor done. Our place is approachable from three sides, with the fourth being a 70′ cliff above a river. We overlook two directions, while the third would require more a remote outpost on higher ground. In other words, we’re defensible against a fairly good sized group.

      Of course, there’s always the more pro-active method of eliminating the danger before it gets active. In talking to a neighbor who’s lived here all his life with his large extended family, his comment was “Well, we pretty much know everyone around here, the good and the bad, and I’ve got a backhoe.”

      1. My area has it’s share of government subsidized dopers, too, and everyone knows who they are. Yes, many of them are locals whose only wealth is the parcel of inherited land they squat on. Most of their decent kinfolk already question how they’ve made it this long without someone killing them. They know that their survival won’t be long as most folks won’t tolerate their hen house ways if not constrained by rule of law and probably would not seek retaliation for a righteous cleansing with cause.

  11. I’m hoping that anyone talking of hit and run attacks on groups of strangers traversing their AO are talking of folks who have already shown an intent to inflict harm or theft of property. It’s one thing to surprise attack a group of rabble rousing heavily armed yahoos in the process of committing evil acts or that you have intel on having already done that, and quite another to attack a random travelling troop that just might be your neighbor’s extended family executing their plan to bug out to Aunt Marge’s farm. Don’t contribute to the mayhem and don’t p-ss of your neighbors unless you have no choice.

    1. D
      Heres a question
      Does the group of neighbors with pitch forks and torches heading to convince you to share your supplies match up with rabble rousers?

  12. If you have any questions about a Golden Hoard simply look to videos and news stories of the actions of people during a Black Friday Sale anywhere in the United States.
    I personally worked off duty security at a Wal-Mart during one of those and i witnessed the actions firsthand. If they will act that way for cheap marked down junk what will they do for the last gallon of clean water or last gallon of gas or last Happy Meal. Be ready !!!!!!!!!

  13. OK well I am well and truly screwed. Just past my backyard fence is where two hidden alleys intersect. In good times it’s a hassle to to be alert and chase away the gibs-me-dats on trash day when they ransack the trash cans looking for CA recyclables.

    The very best defense I have… and I’m surprised no one mentioned it yet… is dogs. I have a great big dobie/shepherd mix. And I also look after my daughters dog, a very elderly chihuahua. Let me just say that little abuela chihuahua has some kind of over the horizon radar. She ALWAYS gives the distant early warning of anything unusual. Then the big dog takes over. If the noise doesn’t subside quickly, then I get involved.

    Another good thing to have is networked cameras. I’ve got 13 live channels that provide 360 degree visibility. There is a monitor in my office and a flat screen on the wall of my bedroom. Any concerns in the middle of the night? I’ll switch on the flat screen and assess whatever is happening before deciding on a course of action. That system and all motion detector lights on the property are backed up by high capacity UPS’s. That’s handy if the power is out or if someone gets cute and tries to cut power before entering my property. Each camera also has IR night vision out to 150 feet.

    It’s about all I can do here in the land of fruits and nuts. Most of my neighbors are pacifist dingbats; a liability not an asset unfortunately. On the bright side, I live in a weird location, literally the last house in LA county within this city. Also right at the point where three PD jurisdictions begin and end, most don’t even know this little street exists. Even Google can’t get it right. It shows I have two houses in two different cities, on top of each other. Ha! So if/when the proverbial **** hits the fan, I’m pretty sure what needs to be done, will be done without attracting a whole lot of attention. I just pray to God we never see that day.

    1. I rely on dogs, too. Be aware that in Argentina (via Ferfal), driving through an area poisoning dogs several days before pillaging became very common. Keep ’em tied up, and watch for “food” left near roads or trails

      1. Sam:
        This brings back a bad memory. Last year I was instrumental in having an extremely violent, career criminal returned to prison. It took the police a couple of weeks to find and arrest him. The dummy was bragging of his deeds on Facebook. The cops now have a way of plotting known landmarks in pictures and cross-checking with google, et al. Under California’s new AB109 law they put together a multi-agency strike force and hit this punk at 4am. He was hog-tied in the back of a squad car before he ever knew what happened. After that I started receiving threats against my home, family, self and my dogs. Indeed one day I heard a hell of a commotion at my back gate. I went to check it out and discovered a man, who looked like he was fresh out of the state penn… doo-rag, prison tatts, etc. He was hanging over my gate trying to entice my big dog to take a treat from his hand. Thankfully my dog is very intelligent and intuitive. She backed up to a safe distance and barked ferociously until I arrived and got rid of the trespasser. I suppose the guy could have just tossed it over the fence. Thank God he wasn’t very smart.

      1. Ghost:
        I cannot envision anyone getting close enough to either dog with a knife. They’d have to breach the fence first, then chase them down, they are never tied up. And guns tend to make a lot of noise. If I am home it will take me about 25 seconds to scan the cameras, find the source, position, take cover and return fire.

        1. McGyver,
          You’ve got a nice setup with your cameras. I’m going to show your post to hubby to get some ideas about outside security.

    2. No such thing as as Pacifist… They just act that way…. When the winds change, they’ll hoist the Jolly Roger! ;}

  14. I agree with Weasel. My hunker down location is very rural. Population of this town is > < 500. 100 miles to the nearest city of any size. A few preppers around , but not many. Scattered out . I am pretty well supplied for 14 – 15 people for a year. More with garden and hunting. I DO expect problems from neighbors. Desperate people resort to extreme measures. COUNT ON IT.
    I expect the Golden Hoard will largely die off and scatter before they get this far. My threat will come the first couple of weeks. My group is large enough to provide a good " watch ".
    I have never shot another human being. I hope I never have to. In present day normal times, I don't have anything that cant be replaced. Nothing that is worth a human life. That being said, in a true SHTF situation, all that changes. I have 14 people depending on me and my supplies.

    1. Yep the first 30-45 days will be the hardest. Know your neighbors, have a BBQ with the decent ones. Be known as a Nice Guy. Remember OPSEC so they do not think of you as Walmart after SHTF but be prepared to trade work for food/water assistance.

      Right now a 50 pound of good quality whole corn is 9.00 at Tractor Supply. Several bags fit into a clean garbage can, Freezing Weather can help reduce bugs. An ability to crack/grind it and some beans can feed a lot of people until the vastly expanded gardens/trapping and scavenging can come into play. Allies OR Hostiles today we can make plans.

      1. When your doing a Hearts and Minds campaign (Allies INSTEAD of Hostiles) please remember to eat what you are trading them for work for. Eating “high on the Hog” while your doling out corn mush might not give you a loyal ally.

        Yes I have eaten home ground feed corn, best with fatty foods but decent. Horse grade feed is GOOD Stuff. You do not feed 2+K horses stuff that will sicken them and they are sensitive to feed issues.

    2. Phred
      Nothing that is worth a human life. That being said, in a true SHTF situation, all that changes
      If its my life or theirs, im going to do my best to assure its theirs

  15. Ken can we discuss the OTHER Golden Horde? Those add on visitors that your good hearted folks You INVITED to your place BRING with them? You know that Girlfriend with 2 or 3 kids, that questionable Brother In-Law that happened to come with your Invited Buddy.

    If you kick them out what will that do to your relationship with your buddy? Will they feel resentment and tell others about that RICH @#$%^&* that threw them out? Can you Trust them not to say sleep while on Guard Duty or simply be a sneaky Pete or Sally that talks behind your back. Or maybe they do not accept YOU Lording it over them asking them to help wash clothes or weed the garden.

    Issues better plans for Today my friends. The Vikings knew how to handle unknown but possibly useful people inside their camps.

    1. Thats why you better think real long and hard on who exactly you are inviting into your inner circle, also why you better think even harder about the reality that you may well have to bolt, personally, im ready to make a go of it right here where i am, but if things get too dicey it will make more sense to disappear, i would rather load all the seeds, supplies and hardware in the truck and go remote (and theres a few places) than sit here and fight off groups of pushy people,
      Think about how it is right now in good times with democrats,,,,,,,

  16. Post a hand written sign that states: “Family is sick right now and in bed. Cannot answer the door, think our food is bad or flu or something…”

  17. LURPS, OPs & LPs. If you wait to engage the potential threat till it is within striking range, you invite disaster. Depending on your group logistics, the aforementioned tactics give the most critical element crucial to winning any fight, information. These can all be covert in nature and serve as an early warning system. Group members on patrol or post should be familiar with reporting troop size, weapons, vehicles, communications, location, and general behavior. Obtaining this info well in advance of any contact will effectively double your chance of assessing and responding to any situation more efficiently. ( think interlocking fields of fire, cover, ambush, ect.)

    1. True, but “LURP’S” (actually LRRP’s), OP’s (observation posts), and LP’s (listening posts) are heavily dependent on dependable communications. The most common available to civilians, FRS and GMRS, can’t be depended on much over 1/2 to 3/4 miles in heavy cover which would rule out LRRP’s. An effective LRRP is highly trained. Stealth is his trade. The average internet warrior I’ve worked with is about as stealthy in the woods as a Wal-Mart cart boy in a parking lot with his earbuds in place. All these tools are dependent on a fighting force already in place defending a redoubt of some sort, not a scattered community of folks trying to grow food, livestock, and hunting and gathering.
      That said, most rural communities have few roads accessing them and city folks tend to take the easiest routes to travel. OP’s would work for these and could be manned on a rotating basis.

      1. Dennis,
        Strait up on your comment. I went to Recondo School back in the 70’s and a lot is involved in recon and reporting OPs, LPs and basic patrolling, ie. SALUTE report. I get the biggest kick reading about them prepper ”special ops” teams and Rambo soldiers stating what they will do when the Horde comes there way. Large organized gangs will wipe the floor with many of these groups. They have the organization, field experience in urban warfare, killer instinct, and weapons to carry out their missions without worry of taking losses as in the big cities death by violence is an everyday occurrence. Only LEO or military can stand up against that type of dedication and mindset.

        1. Hey Broadwing

          This is an unpleasant subject but I can’t think of anything more important for people to think about.

          I’m sure this kind of scenario is completely foreign to some people’s thinkin, outside the realm of their reality so to speak. IT IS NOT. This is somethin everybody should be plannin for just as fervently as water.
          I do understand your comment about dedication and mindset, If somebody readin is sorta on the fence about fightin, I don’t want them to feel they don’t have a chance. I would not want to test the resolve of a man fightin for his life, his family, his property and his very way of life.
          I have said it several times before, absolutely nothin will be more important than the capability and willpower to protect ourselves.
          Also if the gangs ain’t careful they might very well become the hunted……….
          Good Luck to you Sir

  18. Historical methods of defense often used difficult access; particularly effective was the mountain pass (internet search for “World’s Most Dangerous Hiking Trail”) which only allowed one person at a time. With such a method an army of hundreds could be defended by a handful of defenders as they knocked them off one-by-one. There are many examples, Machu Picchu, Herodium the Palace-Fortress, etc.

  19. So here ya go, how does this de escalate?

    Your neighbors show up demanding you divvy up your supplies because they know you have food and guns and ammo and you have enough to share with everyone because you were nice enough to share some with them a few days ago, theres quite a mob, men, women, kids, dogs, pet mice,,,,

    So where does it end?

    1. You have to de-escalate before it starts. My personal plan is that when the SHTF I call all my neighbors together and we have a long hard discussion about food. Then a party to pull out lawns and get the yards planted. I provide the seeds and the know-how, they’re responsible from that point on. If they won’t cooperate I close my doors. As far as anyone in the neighborhood is aware, all I have from that point on is seeds, which I already distributed. At that point I can tell them which weeds to eat, and they’re on their own.

      If people come to my door I’ll tell them which weeds I’m eating so they can pick their own.

    2. If they are outside the wire I will ask them if they remember the Garbage/Burial pit they dug yesterday. Followed up by a canister of Bear Spray if they do not head back home.

      Inside the wire use the burial pit as they are a clear and present danger to the survival of my tribe. I am helpful until you become dangerous.

  20. By definition this “Golden Horde” is always coming out of a city of some size and invading your rural domain …. little discussed is the very real possibility of FEMA having the pre-SHTF timetable to evac this Golden Horde out to your locale – filling up the county fairgrounds, convention center, auction barns, colleges, and just dumping groups off at the small towns dotting the roads and railroads … good intentions to supply and tend to these misplaced sheeple – but good intentions and a dime get you very little in the way of practicality ….

    1. What you describe is a possibility. What is a foregone fact is that the state prisons, which many times are located in rural areas, and county jails will be opened and abandoned as a “humanitarian” act by officials if they are no longer able to feed and guard the prisoners. Many of which are stone cold addicts, thieves, and murderers.

      1. those guards and prison officials are locals – nooooooo way in hell are those convicted murderers, rapists, druggies and general dirtbags getting loose – if the prison can’t feed them any longer they’ll helped to the happy hunting grounds …..

        1. Illini warrior,
          If only it was that simple. What of “honor farms” and lower security lockups for some of the less dangerous inmates? I think it will be a toss up. At best LEO will try and keep them together and get them to fend for themselves. Depends on how deep the shtf.

          1. Have had a chance to speak to a few of the guards that work the Alto GA. prison. If it turns bad keys will be broken off in doors. Control panels will be smashed with fire axe as well as power panels. Exit gates chained and locked are disabled in the close positions. Was told some of these people threaten to kill us everyday so I’m going to let them out to find my home and family. Please!

          2. the guards and officials know who is who when it comes to the violent & dangerous – there’s gang bangers being held in the county jails around the Chicago area that are 50X worse than the max security prisoners in Joliet Stateville ….

            talked to plenty of correction officers – between the hospital pharmacy, vehicle maintenance and groundskeeping that “‘last meal”‘ before walking out the door would solve everything ….

    2. Yup- I recently found out that the local fairgrounds, about 3 miles from me as the crow flies, is a planned area (fema camp?) for disaster victims. Plans are to bus or fly them in. This is in large part that this little area sits on top of water.

  21. Lots of discussion on deception (mostly Security via Obscurity), but what sorts of misdirection can people do? I’m guessing that most folks don’t have the luxury of living in an already-obscure homestead. Things like having a long dirt driveway and a house you can’t see from the road are great, but not something you can DO. (short of selling your current home and buying one like that).

    The (fake) plague sign seems like a mis-direction plan. That might dissuade the average person, but maybe not the violent (who would take the sign to say ‘weak victims inside!’.

    If you can’t hide, what sorts of re-direction measures might be taken? Set up a ‘lootable’ house (easy target) nearer the main travelled route with a few low value items to loot — so the horde feel like they ‘got something’ and move on? Perhaps, if you know the likely course of the horde, you arrange a couple of these faux targets to lure the horde farther from your house.

    What else for re-directions?

    — Mic

    1. BTW, the ‘lootable’ faux target assumes there are abandoned houses around you — not that you’re building them.

    2. Mic,

      Exactly. And this is the type of specific examples I’m hoping that people will brainstorm.

      While many will re-actively say that they’ll just pick up their AR (or whatever) and start shootin… I would rather we put our heads together and come up with some clever redirection techniques. There have been a few so far. But let’s keep them coming…

      1. Spent brass scattered on the front porch and outside a few windows. Perhaps augmented with bloody footprints and drag marks leading away from the home.

        Posting warning and diversion signs assumes basic literacy, a grasp of English and a >70 IQ. Have you ever met a Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13)? There was a nest of them living next door when I lived in LA. These folks are more ‘visual learners’.

      2. Ken,
        That’s the interesting angle to your question. The shoot-em-all approach seems to assume there aren’t all that many in the horde. A gang of ten isn’t really a horde. Even if you’ve got a good sized mutual defense group, a horde 10 times the size of your group makes shooting problematic. Sure, you’d get a bunch in the first volley, but any horde worth it’s pitchforks and torches would likely go into siege mode. Being besieged sounds like a consequence to avoid.

        Good intel seems crucial. If you know a horde of a hundred are swarming up the highway, you can do something to divert that horde. Maybe lure them away from your location so you can stay undiscovered. Keying off of MinerJim’s idea for camps, and footage of Venezuelans mobbing trucks, what if you position a tempting target ahead of the horde (trailer marked FOOD) and then drove ahead of the crowd (them chasing the bait). Then, when you’ve lured them far enough away, you “oops” lose the trailer so the horde “wins”. Thinking that a horde fleeing a city would continue to flee away from it, lure them a few miles farther away in the same direction. Seems like they’d be less inclined to head back the way they came.

        Such a scheme assumes you’d have pre-made sacrificial trailers of not-too-valuable food (or whatever). Maybe an old trailer and some #10 cans of pineapple would be like barter stock.

        On the grim side, an unruly horde might thin their own ranks fighting over your spilled trailer.

  22. To many people, including me, the term “Golden Horde” conjures up images of large groups of hungry, drug crazed looters boiling out of heavily populated areas after a major SHTF event, to scour the country-side looking for food, money and whatever else they can loot. The archaic term brigandage comes to mind. While this may be true to some extent, I think that is a distortion of the real facts, in an otherwise docile society not inclined to commit brigandage in the first place.

    The “Golden Horde” includes everyone who has failed to prepare for SHTF and that includes most, if not all of your neighbors, friends and family, not just those boiling out of heavily populated areas.

    Neighbors, acquaintances both close and casual and family members will be your biggest threat. I think trading and bartering will take care of most of that threat. I’m not sure how I’d deal with what remains although I have thought about it. I hope it never comes but I’d posture that the brigands boiling out of the cities, along with what remains of the local threat can be dealt with the same way… with force and stealth. I hope it never comes to that. Just saying.

  23. My hope,
    Is that
    1. Our small full time resident community will remain somewhat civil, knowing we are on an island, there are under 100,000 full time residents, there are already large groups fairly into gardening and organic food, and a large long time group of residents who hunt, fish, etc and have deep roots.
    2. People come together because of our small community and background.
    3. The government stays the hell out of the way and doesnt try to rule people,,,, This is my biggest concern, government as a whole is staffed with a bunch of jackazzes,
    I would have a hard time chasing off a hungry family, but i will have no problem dumping dozens of mags into a bunch of gov thugs thinking they can just direct and demand,,,,

  24. Unless there is a catastrophic event, I believe we will see regional collapse of society. Watch some big cities like San Francisco, Baltimore, Chicago, Philly, … then we will know how supposedly civilized populations deal with shortages. Hopefully, we will see how far and how violent looting extends from these cities – then we can determine if our own location is survivable.

  25. Well, I’m sorry I had Mr. throw away those 2 #10 cans of pineapple that were swelling at both ends. Mixed in with the fruit cocktail might have come in handy!
    This discussion brings to mind the movie The Road. The man and boy were taking a route through the woods and saw the cannibals chasing a woman. Not to rape but to eat.
    A good solution if budget allows is a bunker. But they are expensive and could be searched out by hordes as well.
    Mr. has made the comment to me about war. It does not take very long for men to regress into a more animal state.

    1. The 50.00 and up underground home worth reading. Today you call it a greenhouse later an easy to defend home.

  26. To be brutally honest where I live is indefensible, Philadelphia 50 miles Southeast, Reading 20 miles East, Allentown/Scranton 40 miles North, Lancaster/York 30-40 miles South, Harrisburg 20 miles West. Major transportation routes to include Turnpike 10 miles away interstates 12 miles, state highways surrounding me completely.

    Additionally, I live in a single family home in a nice middle class housing area 125,000-250,000 dollar homes located 1 mile from Walmart and 2 large grocery chains. A low income apartment/project housing complex is 1/2 mile away with about 75 units, and the County prison is 2 miles away. We’re 1 mile from our city limits with the city having a population of 26,000.

    When I originally moved here we needed to be close to where we worked. It’s a nice area but a high value target that’s indefensible. Bugging out until trouble passed would be our only option. Those of you who live out in the rural areas are lucky. You’ve got a chance of defending your property, we don’t. Just being honest. Even with my military training I couldn’t defend for long.

    1. Look at Pennsylvania Realestate on your computer. Go to Berks county land & farms there is a nice remote property on Blue Rocks Road. I looked it over in October when we were back there for our 50th. class reunion. There are other good areas around Shartelsville also. Too many relatives for me to move back.

      1. Thanks for the tip, nice area but closer to the interstate then I’m at right now. Realistically, I’m not interested in moving nor do I want to go through all the hassle of relocating just to escape a situation that has a very low probability of ever actually taking place. Like it’s veen stated by others, we have no idea what actually will happen.

        I’m betting our lives that TEOTWAWKI won’t actually occur in what’s left of our lifespan. If the worse happens I’ll just do the best I can. I’m pretty prepared for a 60-90 day SHTF situation, and I’m trying to increase my preps to 6-12 months. If I have to leave the homestead I have an option or two I can use. As it stands today I’ve got higher priorities in my life such as us enjoying retirement to its fullest.

        1. Broadwing: Enjoying life now is very important! Times are relatively good we should enjoy it, all the while putting stuff back for a rainy day or for worse.
          That being said your situation may not be as bad as you think. You are not the high value target in the area. People will be looking for the Walmart and grocery stores etc. All you need do is discourage people from coming for you and yours. A handful of people on house tops could defend a four block area. with a good view of the street and warning shots before they get too close like a Korean neighbor hood did in the Rodney King riots. When the bullets started hitting the ground in front of them the mob turned away to find an easier target
          Some Walmart That Way signs a few blocks away wouldn’t hurt either. Skull and Crossbones signs with Do Not Enter a little closer should preserve ammo somewhat.

  27. wow. A lot of thinking behind these responses. gives me a lot of things to think about and ponder from my initial response.
    One thing that is coming out is that whatever ‘our plan’ is, we will need to know what the local government and law enforcement plans are. I think in most cases, dovetailing in with them might be the best plan, certainly do not want to oppose them unless they are way off base. But either way, it is important to know what they are. I think that what might come out of this is the extension of LE by the deputizing of local armed citizen ‘militias’ who will set up patrols.
    Perhaps one way to ‘steer the horde’ is to know the local emergency preparedness plans, and try to steer the crowds to ‘shelters’ , ‘help centers’, even ‘FEMA camps’, and away from our locations. I am sure that in a case of SHTF the local LEO will be sent out to ‘assess’ the local resources at hand to help out these centers. I guess it will be up to us at that point to decided how much we want to support the relief effort, or try and hide what we have. Here again the government will lean heavily on the ‘producers’.
    Whatever is done, one thread that seems to be apparent is the need to organize and communicate across the board with others in our community. ‘ no man is an island’ seems to ring true.

  28. In the spirit of the stated subject of today, I’ll throw out some simple advice. Being that it’s free advice, place what value you will on it’s usefulness.

    We are creatures of habit. We live in a world of highways, roads, and “beaten paths”. These are not always the shortest routes between two points, but the do tend to always be the easiest path. Modern mankind is lazy. We will pick easy over difficult every time, unless there is some reward awaiting at the end of the challenge to do otherwise.

    Because of this ingrained trait, in warfare/survival, roads can become killing fields. Game animals are no different. They tend to take the path of lest resistance when travelling from place to place. For this reason, the smart hunter knows where these paths/trails are, or knows how to recognize by terrain where they are likely to be. The smart hunter will parallel the beaten path from a distance that allows him to observe whatever is using the path. This means his travels will be more difficult, but he is far less likely to encounter his quarry unprepared. Likewise, he is less likely to encounter a trap laid by another hunter who took advantage of animal nature, or, in turn, he himself can lay traps along that enticing trail of least resistance with catching game as an objective, or inflicting pain on an adversary.

    Or, you can stumble down the beaten path, struggling under the burden of a 100lb rucksack, carrying your state of the art fully accessorized AR-15 with a thousand rounds of ammo, gambling on the hope that the hunter really can’t put a 40 grain .22 rimfire round through your left ear from hiding fifty yards away.

    Guerrilla warfare is real, in shtf it’s inevitable. Prepare accordingly.

    1. Hey Dennis
      It will definitely be a “thinkin” game. We should always be tryin to out think the other feller.

    2. I am a huge fan of the lowly .22. I have been thinkin several years I would sit out here on top of the hill in the blackberry briars with a 22. If I see a fly I just might shoot him in the eye…….you made an excellent point like you always do. Now before anybody says anything, I have “real” weapons as well. The .22 is much under appreciated especially from a stealth perspective.

  29. I have often thought if you did hide in “plain site” maybe you could have some planned items to lay about. A few bullets on the ground/floor. Couple of cans/bags of food, smattering of coins or WHAT EVER looks like anybody would find useable. They will spread out searching all of the rooms/closets. Possibly as the hordes came and went a few goodies might just be enough to satisfy for the moment. Maybe they will move on. In the mean time they will be arguing about who will get what and how to distribute. I picture the hordes like dog scavengers. We have all seen a cur dog. They sniff and poke around moving the whole time. If they get a scrap of food they linger slightly longer searching the area. When nothing is found they move on. Of course there will be some squatting too. But hunger and thirst make people move on. Happens in our world right now today.

  30. Having seen and been in the Rodney King Riots part 2. (the violent one).

    I can say that I take away inspiration from the Korean Community in Central Los Angeles. Their businesses and homes came through somewhat unscathed. They live near each other, they banded together, shared resources and guarded each others shops and homes from the rooftops in 1992. The cell phones were still working and they spoke in “code” to each other that was not decipherable to the local authorities ( Korean- the mother tongue.).

    Within my own community: Weapons are chosen on the basis of the small statured and physically limited can operate them with proficiency. Very few 44 magnums and 45’s here. The ammo is too heavy to carry 5oo rounds over long distance. My wife and others would have an ample supply of 9mm weapons and ammo in a variety of platforms that have one thing in common: They do not jam. They go bang every time the trigger is pulled and the safety is off. In shotguns: I have my 12 gauge and my wife has her 20 gauge.

    If the Golden Horde fails to read the signs and continues to try to infiltrate, they may survive but they will risk injury or blindness if they proceed. Strategic withdrawal would involve setting up booby traps and cones of defensive fire. Ballistic vests do not protect the feet, ankles and legs. Removing the can of peaches may trigger a rat trap-shotgun shell in your face. Yes, some thought has gone into this.

    There are easier targets to go to and would it not be better to head for the safe confines of a FEMA camp?

  31. We once lived outside of a town which was once reasonable sized. over the years it has been populated with those from escaping the SF and bay area. The town is now a city with a good sized population which dh & I discovered on the day of his eye surgery. Looked like little LA with the traffic back up on the freeway. Golden Horde on wheels…..

    With this new revelation, it is now apparent that we must replace the subdivisions parcel map where we reside. Although we are miles outside of this city a bike rider can reach our area within a matter of hours or a walker 2-4 days top.

    Why the parcel map? Simple our area has large sections of land with a few homes on them, but growing each year. Better to know which parcels are occupied with friendly like minded parties, over those which we know have druggies, felons with nefarious backgrounds. Remember better to know they enemy? The roads in and out can be squeezed down for single file parties or vehicles that try to enter or exit.

    Our dilemma last few years we have little contact with the neighbors we once had, but know of a few who are prepared to take a stand. Question will be what about the others who reside here. Almost forgot the larger draw– water… one of two lakes located in this area.

  32. On the passive side of redirecting we are surrounded by water, swamp, wet lands, and heavily wooded forest. There is only one way onto our road as it is a dead-end road. At the beginning of our road there is a sizable culvert that runs under the road. If that part of the road is destroyed, no one will be able to drive down the road.

    To get to our house you have to come down a long driveway. Since we have an impenetrable wall of thorny brush as much as 15 feet thick surrounding the house, there is no other way to the house except the long driveway.

    Knowing that we can be overrun with a superior force I have buried, hidden and disguised about 2/3 of our food and critical supplies. Then if we feel the need to abandon the house for a short while we also have a sign to post on the door.

    It reads like this, “John, we had to leave early, food all gone. Help yourself to anything you might need to survive. Just remember about the booby traps.”

    Speaking of booby traps, we do have several. They will be lethal booby traps. There will be a sign warning anyone who enters that they enter at the risk of death.

  33. Something to think about. Bright colored day-packs. You know the cheap ones. The ones you see on the discount/clearance racks for $5 at Wally World. They would make great bait. You want to increase your odds as a hunter? Hunt over bait.

    Can you think of anything more appealing to a hungry human scavenger than a highly visible pack filled to bursting with…….. grass, leaves, and rocks, hanging from a tree branch a few feet off a beaten path? Being observed by a hunter, secure in his camoflaged hide, oh say, 50yds away.

    1. Understand please, these tactics can be used to kill an adversary, but also can be used to better observe their intentions without resorting to deadly force. It gives opportunity to see if they are travelling alone, with a companion, or with a straggling group. If not alone, you will be able to overhear their conversation and possibly their plans and if they are armed. I don’t adhere with the shoot first ask questions later philosophy of some. I’ve watched a many of deer pass by me unharmed because they weren’t what I was looking for.

    2. Dennis,
      Sounds like you are describing the wily art of ‘man-hunting’. It certainly has better chances of survival against a superior force than ‘playing Rambo’ with guns a blazing. A big part of armed survival seems to be knowing when to engage, and when to stay hid. Some of you seasoned Vets learned this the hard way during war time. For the rest of us, it is something we will have to think about and acquire with time.

  34. OK – like many scenarios of SHTF, a game plan is needed. They call these things SOPs or Standard Operating Procedures. One’s call to action I have called a “trigger”. What event will drive you from your home? It may not be the Golden Horde or Zombies, one may want to hide in plain site. If you are on your own, leaving before the horde gets to your doorstep may be the best option, but then, you may end up one of the horde. My suggestion is to get with a like minded group, identify ALL possible critical events and figure out at least one – maybe three possible reactions as options. Have your team (other like minded individuals in on the game plans) look it over both on paper and on site, see if they can pick holes in your plan of action and maybe offer alternatives. The Golden Horde issue applies if we are bunkering in place or have found a place we considered safe – until the Horde arrives there. If we have a standard garden,, it will be found! If we have an off-grid location where we do non-traditional gardening, we are more apt to have the horde bypass it as it is not easily recognizable. Planting the “Three Sisters” like the American Indians did leaves out the marks of farming and can be developed in clearings not accessible by roads. Just need to ensure it is not on some shortcut path.

  35. I really don’t expect too much trouble here from “just people”. I wouldn’t think there would be much trouble from “gangs”. But it only takes once…….so I have thought about it. I live a mile off the paved road, the first quarter of that mile is through the woods. I would fell trees on the driveway to block it. There is only one way in, one way out, other than some really rough trails. The rough trails would make them vulnerable enough to be neutralized. My only real threat would be from people on foot.
    I have a distinct advantage, I have lived here 30 yrs, I know every rock, stump, groundhog hole on my 75 acres. I would also depend on my dogs, not necessarily for attack but mainly for intel. They know how everything smells, sounds, and feels here. It is their domain. They are always alert and any changes no matter how small. They can recognize a strange vehicle a half mile away creepin slowly on the drivewway even when I can’t hear it at all. Nobody will walk up on em without bein heard or scented.
    There will be much easier places to pillage than here. I truly hope it never comes to this, but if it does it will not be caused by me.

    1. wood56gas,

      Me too. If my time comes, it will be on familiar ground. Too old and ornery to run, too tough to eat. I reckon if somebody wants to endure the pain of taking me out, they’re welcome to my place.

    1. That IS the BIG problem. Thus my idea of going dark, No Generators etc. as to allow time to figure out if Law Enforcement has gone home to protect their families. I happen to have a friendly State Trooper nearby I can ask about things. He knows I’ll help him and his family.

      If your local police force is not scrambling their communications you can use a scanner. Even if they are scrambling the lack of chatter would indicate a lack of police activity.

      Otherwise too easy to find yourself in Police/Military gun sites as a hostile.

  36. I wish I knew of a veteran who was experienced in setting up prtimeters. I would like to be able to send topographical maps, videos, and pictures of our home. While I have thought carefully about defence, I sure would appreciate expert advice. I would also like to know where I went wrong in my thinking.

    I think this could become a profitable business for a vet, especially a disabled vet. There are plenty of Preppers who would pay for expert advice and there are plenty of websites to advertise on.

    1. Aside from the OPSEC issue Skeezix the BEST person to set up your defense is you. Get some help, some paper and pencil, one walks while the other notes where the walkers knees are hidden. That is a place a crawler can use.

      Get some spray paint to make range markers so when you say defend zone Red 1 your team knows where that is and markers can assist in low light situations to ID where the routes of approach are. Drawing a fire map is basic.

      Also get some cheap liter bottles of soda and mark off a window sized area on your home walls. Find out how far you can throw and hit that target. This gives you solid idea where your Red Zone Defense is.

      1. Sorry posted too fast. The point of the Soda exercise is to know how far a Molotov Cocktail can be thrown into your window effectively. Not perfect but a good start.

    2. Hey Skeezix

      There are a lot of decent like minded folks nationwide that have formed militias that would be happy to help you. Most of the time they are right under our noses and we don’t see em. Maybe you could gain some intel and carefully feel around in your area, just a thought.

    3. Skee, in the book Cold Times she says make a map of your area. One can do that with google or try your state comptrollers office at a .gov site. Start with your address and look around. Here in Tn, I can look up all the parcels in our area and get the owners names as well. Just need the address. It is public knowledge. This is on my agenda SOON.

      1. Mrs. USMCBG
        We will go to the country records division an have a paper print out of the massive subdivision in which our property is located. From that I can acquire the parcel numbers along with names address which can be either be transferred to the actual paper map or an index sheet which will allow additions or changes when property changes owners.

        When I was a member of our private road board we had that map an never replaced it after it was destroyed. Time to update information since there are a lot of newbies in this area.

  37. My concerns of the “Golden Horde” and who will they be, plus a few resolutions on “Redirecting & Misdirection”

    1. the .gov;
    Sorry all there is NO WAY you’re going to escape this biggest leach/scavenger/looter/thieves, they WILL find you and TAKE anything/everything “for the better good”, and if your part of the “collateral damage” they could care less, Period.
    If you want to survive the .gov, you had best have more than one (hopefully 2 or 3) “Stash” of things you’re going to depend on, hoping these parasites can’t find everything. So yes Redirecting & Misdirection the .gov by giving up what you have, and move to your next location or stash.

    2. Your neighbors;
    The next-door white-trash/redneck neighbor that has a good idea you have Food/Water/stuff, now he has 2-5 starving kids and a wife that’s yelling all the time.
    This is a tough one, do you just shoot them all as some would suggest? Do you share F/W/S with them and never get rid of them? Do you have a meeting with them before TSHTF and now they know even more that you’re prepared? I would greatly suggest to Redirecting & Misdirection you become even worse than them for the first few weeks/months, become even worse than the “Gray-Man” become a slob with torn clothing, become dirty, stink, messed up hair, look like you have not eaten in a few weeks, and begging for food/water. Hell even set out a 5-gallon bucket of poop and 1/2 roll of TP outside the front door, and for crying out loud, do NOT shoot off a firearm unless your life depends on it, that will only draw attention to yourself. If you have nothing and are as bad off as others they will not ask of you.

    3. The Rioters;
    99% of the people that riot are just being stupid; they think they now can do anything they want; burn cars, smash windows, throw rocks and run around like complete jack-asses.
    As someone already mentioned, these idiots are easy to ‘Redirect” just point a gun at them. Be slightly organized, act as if you know what you’re doing, and if they get close fire a few shots into the air, 99.99% of the time they will scatter like pigeons. Rioters are, for the most part, brainless fools that are “having fun” and not really thinking about the next meal, they just want to steal that Big-Screen-TV. Heck, even the “master-minds” that Soros hires and busses to riots are easily detoured, remember the Tattoo Parlor with 6 standing down hundreds?

    4. Gangs and Misfits;
    This group are starting to organize and know what they are told, nothing more. Gangs like MS-13 and the likes that need gun-sights on the side of their handguns usually are only following orders, and become violent at the drop of a hat.
    Easy fix, take out the ole-fat-boy with the tattoos and cornrows that’s sitting at the BACK of the gang. Sure there will be someone else in-line, but they will need to regroup and asses if “that place” is worth the risk. Like many have said, unorganized groups are easy, they usually don’t have the proper equipment to fight at night or long distances, that sideways pea-shooter may hit 50 yards (maybe), not the 500- 1000 yards a decent 7.62 and a good scope will.

    5. Organized and trained hunters/ex-military;
    I believe this group will not show up for quite a while, for they will be depleting the first 4 on my list, they WILL NOT put up most of the aforementioned. This group will hole-up and defend their ‘sanctuary’ until such time as the first “die-off” has accrued.
    Defending, Redirecting & Misdirection these groups is going to be difficult; they will not be easily fooled by the wave of a hand. They will know 99% of the ‘tricks’ you know and will employ strategies learned in actually war/fighting. The only advantage you “may” have is the knowledge of the land/area, your ability to “rig” the homestead and basically not show your hand before contact. Again being the Gray-Man and having nothing of value may help, but like the .gov, good luck.

    6. The lone-Man;
    This is a person that obviously has the skills to become invisible, to track, hunt, kill, and survive. He is the person that could take out your guard-persons and not make a sound. If he wants what you have, there will be not much to stop him no matter how big and well trained your neighborhood weekend group.
    How are you going to Redirecting & Misdirection this person if they want you? You’re not. The only chance you might have is to, 1. Be this person (and I doubt if many of us will). 2. Have this person in your group and know the risk. 3. Hope like hell he passes you by.

    Basically if your very lucky and happen to not be spotted by a few hundred Rioters/the .gov/ the Loan-Man than sure you probably will be ok after 6 months, that’s a HUGE “IF”.

    Than the real fun starts, rebuilding, trying to provide food/water/etc., establishing a community of those that are not trying to TAKE everything you may still have.

  38. During our current economic resurgence, it would be nice to see municipalities put by cashes of long term food storage (MRE’s, water, etc. ) according to the population. NOT by raising local taxes! This may be especially prudent in disaster prone areas. However a nationwide supply would perhaps go a long way towards delaying the onset of the chaos of lawlessness after a major grid down event. The psychological effect on the public of knowing that supplies are available and that there is hope until order can be restored, should to some degree help maintain civil order. Logistics will indeed play a major role. Some geographical locations may require more security than others.
    Assuming that a certain percentage of the ” Golden Horde “, will find themselves in either a FEMA facility, or a private prison. Unless at the time of collapse we have an anti-american President, then those facilities would probably quickly be filled with Christians and patriots.
    A friend of mine excercises a fine deterrent, causing would be local marauding bandits to think twice. He practices regularly on the range on his property.
    Personally I do not expect to see a grid down soon, at least not on Trump’s watch, as he’s doing what he can to ensure that the grid is protected. I could be wrong of course. Could there be a false flag blamed on NK, of course there could.
    We have a lot of freedom loving Americans willing to make sure that there is a gun behind every blade of grass. Thank God that the American spirit is still alive and well! There are more Americans willing to make sure that people like the gentleman from NK, the one that raised his crutches in the air at the President’s State of The Union address, has an opportunity that millions would risk everything to have.
    Instead of a grid down with all ot the collateral degradation. I think instead we’ll see an unexpected escalation in number of deaths caused by heart ,and lung disease, worldwide. Without going into further details, those of you with your eyes and ears open know what I’m talking about.
    I think that it would be good for communities to discuss how to help the people in the area that will be in need of assistance, should the need arise. Food, sanitation, medical, etc.
    If fortification is your concern, Green Beret Survival Guides, by Jeremiah Johnson is of great benefit. Black Scout Survival discusses urban survival for folks concerned about getting through/bugging out of a city.

    1. CR
      After reading your post a couple of times, I’m sorry the .gov has many MANY times shown how well they are at doing things, need I remind some of the catastrophes in the past whereas FEMA and others have “helped”. 5 days to get water to the Super Bowl after telling millions to go there…..

      There is no was in heck I personally believe that the .gov could in their wildest minds provide for even a city full of 10 million all alone a Country of 320 million.
      Additionally I will guarantee you that if TSHTF hard, guess who will be the first to receive your charity the .gov is to dole out.

      Yes I will agree that the Spirit of the non-Trump-HATERS is better, and things are looking up. BUT just because things are looking up does by no means mean TSHTF will not happen, or the Grid will not go down. You must remember, just because one NK defector raised his crutches, done not mean that Iran, NK, Russia, xyzzzz wound not take us down in a heartbeat.

      Your quote **”A friend of mine excercises a fine deterrent, causing would be local marauding bandits to think twice. He practices regularly on the range on his property.”** so basically he is advertising he has guns and probably stuff? Can he “take out” 20 gang members that storm his house at 3:00AM?

      Sorry again, not trying to downplay your post, just some things to think on….

    2. I am curious how far the gov will go. They will have access to all of our bank card purchases. Will know what we have bought especially large quantity of ANYTHING. The elite lefty socialist like Besos would certainly roll over on his customers. After all shouldn’t we be made to share.

      1. Find the nearest restaurant supply house. buy your basic beans and rice there. Repackage into smaller containers. PAY CASH. Wear a hat, Look down when in the store.

  39. NRP, #5 &#6 could possibly be the better choice to join up with. Perhaps the more civil, and willing to work with you. Notwithstanding some criteria of course.

  40. NRP, Totally understand your reply. The emphasis I think needs to be on pre-planning. With all of the talk about the possibility of an EMP, etc., I see no reason for there not to be more emphasis placed on community preparedness. Local .gov., community groups, volunteers, etc. Organize, delegate responsibilities, etc.
    On thread, finally! Re-directing by driving away from your property, BOL, etc. while tossing foodstuffs from the back of a pickup truck/car, etc. Things that you don’t mind using for such. Just make sure to keep ahead of the crowd 😯

    1. Hey CR
      With all due respect, I think we are far past the idea of gov fixin anything. In a castrophe your well being will be largely up to you. The idea with the pickup and food will likely get the driver shot, then the food thrower, then they will take your truck with the food in it.
      No matter what kind of problem causes the shtf, human behavior will be much the same.

  41. Hey Calirefugee
    Hope you’re doin well. You always make excellent comments with lots of info. I do understand your point but I guess I have a different perspective. I’m not a violence monger, don’t wanna harm anybody but, If it is indeed gonna happen and I do believe it is inevitable at some point, I hope and pray I am here. I would love to be able to help my decendants along in whatever way may be required. If needed I wanna do my part on whatever scale called for. I know some may disagree, and that’s ok.

  42. One topic not discussed–how long will the gas last from parked vehicles stolen by the hoods in cities??

    1. JJ.
      Gas may last up to a year if kept away from air, please see a few articles Ken has done on fuel storage….
      As a side, please ask questions that are off topic in the Saturday article area.

      1. wow–I thought gas stolen from vehicles to get to the country by thugs ‘was’ on topic.– pardon me!
        My thought process doesn’t work like most. :-)

        1. JJ;
          Apologizes, When you asked “how long will the gas last from parked vehicles stolen by the hoods in cities” it was interpreted on how long will stored gas last or still be good, not how much could be available for the “Hoods”, aka Gangs, to use on retreating from the cities.

    2. In keeping on the Golden Horde topic I am assuming power is out so fuel stations are inoperative. SALVAGED gas from vehicles stolen by Thugs would last about 7 to 10 days before they are on foot. That assumes that the Thugs are not using Diesel powered pickups and have a couple of nearly full Semi Truck tanks to draw from. Then closer to 30 days sorry to say.

      These ARE assumptions but to start planning you have to make reasonable assumptions.

      So thus my tribes plans to Go Dark 30-45 days and hopefully avoid Thugs and Gangs. Local folks I hope that between work for food and defenses stout enough to have them move to easier targets.

      As far as True Misdirection IF I had solid information that a gang was working my area I would use bicycles with trailers (for swift and QUIET Mobility) and some expendable equipment to give them a Lighted Target several miles away from my area. An damaged automobile would give a chargeable battery wires and lights for this decoy.

      Opinions please. Do you think a Gang would seek out this powered cabin decoy?

      1. NHM,
        I think In a grid down situation, it would draw like moths to a flame. But I think an organized gang would send out scouts first, to check it out. So then what would your reaction be? Shoot and kill anyone drawn in? Might be a curious neighbor. That would suck. But if you had communication with everyone in your area, and your allies knew the ruse, it might bag you a few scouts. At that point though they would probably catch on and become more cautious. But like some else mentioned, using “bait” is not a bad idea, just need to make sure who is a friendly and who is foe. Just MHO.

        1. I have no intent to engage them this is to get them to expend time and resources away from my AO. I am not Duck Hunting I am encouraging them to wander far away mayhap to seek resources over there. We have discussed Man Trapping but do not want to get a neighbor who was merely curious. Traps do not know (Potential) Friends from Foes.

          Sorry to say I am not with a burning desire to be the Police in SHTF.

      2. If I were them I would lay low in the dark and just watch the lighted target from afar and see what goes on. I would be interested in where the gangs go to roost……..

        1. Hopefully my friend the Gang does not have some of that fancy FLIR stuff that makes Ghillie Suits nearly useless. Would make your plan to watch them and look for their roost pretty dangerous.

          Again as I’ve said before I am very adverse to sacrifice my Tribe members.

          1. NH Michael
            I apparently didn’t make it clear, you asked what people thought of your plan……If I “were” the gang, I would lay back and watch your plan……I would be watchin to see what was goin on around the “decoy”……….I don’t think any “gang member” worth his salt would arrive to see the light at a dead run. And yes, if there were gang problems, I would be most interested in where they were roostin…….dangerous? Perhaps, but it will be a very dangerous time. Personally I think ridin a bicycle around towin a trailer would put the rider at great risk. Good Luck to you Sir

          2. Wood56gas (cool name BTW) as I see it my folks know the area and the trails hopefully far better than the visiting Gang Members.

            So the Redirecting/Decoy mission while dangerous is worth that Extra Day while they are investigating the decoy to prepare for a Gang visit and has the hope that they will indeed search for resources away from my AO.

            When SHTF every day my defenses and resources will be increased. Better to be an Anvil for the Gangs Sword then to put my fingers (Tribe Members) out to be slashed.

          3. I hear you Michael. I just imagine myself on a bike, I compromise my ability to hear, my ability to spot motion in other places, While I am denegratin my own abilities, I am supplyin somebody else the perfect opportunity to spot myself in motion and possibly to hear me. Not to mention the fact that somebody can hide and knock me clean off the bike with nothin more than a stick.
            We’ll just use a whitetail for an example, I can spot a deer thats movin at a trot down the trail for several hunderd yards if terrain permits, that same deer sneakin along the trail in the edge of the woods is much more difficult to see. I am much more comfortable sneakin, stoppin, lookin and listenin,and if need be, just hide and wait, that’s just me, your mileage may vary.

          4. I would also assume you have your tactical bikes blacked out to eliminate glare.

          5. Bikes are drab indeed. No lights or reflectors. While I can agree that recon on foot can be a lot quieter you give up your ability if spotted to pop smoke and flee faster than the gang members (maybe younger than I) can give chase.

            My folks will not use roads so vehicle advantage will be small at best.

            That White Tail (or tactical bicycle) moving on a moonlit night is still pretty hard to spot unless you happen to be already waiting in a Ghillie Suit. The Value of a Lighted Target is you can see it MILES away. I have no interest in setting it up with in foot patrol range of a Gang “Roost”.

            The point of the Decoy is to MOVE that Roost farther away from my AO. Miles away in rough terrain.

          6. bicycles, moonlit nite………how do you plan to defeat the FLIR you mentioned earlier?

          7. Michael
            I appreciate you sharin your perspective on things. It’s interestin to hear how others do things….it’s stopped rainin, I need to go find somethin constructive to do. Good Luck to you Sir

          8. Distance and Terrain as FLIR/Night Vision although very good can not see miles in treed and rough terrain. Please remember that you can see and thus seek out lights from over 7 miles away THUS my frequent suggestions that folks GO DARK.

            From my experiences in Bosnia and other bad areas like Baltimore MD gangs do not have good light or noise discipline. They are pretty sure they are the Alpha Predators in the area. Now some rogue Special Forces team THAT is an entirely different kettle of fish. If that is the Golden Horde scenario then let the Hellfire Missiles blow me away. :-)

          9. NH Michael, wood56gas, and all others,

            Stealth and quiet is your friend. Keep in mind though, in a true grid down, shtf scenario, sound carries a whole lot farther than most folks realize. In modern society there is always mechanical generated background noise that will not be be present after the balloon goes up. That “stealthy bike” ‘s tires on a rock/gravel road will sound like a popcorn popper and be heard as far as 1/2 to 3/4 mile away, especially at night. On pavement, with any speed at all, the chain and gears will sing a much louder song the most imagine. You would be wise to test theories while times are good and adjust your plans accordingly. When being shot at is not a good time to discover what sounded good in theory doesn’t really work.

        1. Actually Old Alaskan that has been discussed in my tribe. Logistics is key to surviving even for Gangs.

          Yes I can get fuel out of an abandoned gas station but not everybody has the equipment and security plan to hold a gas station. Gangs with a solid gas station base, water, sanitation and food can be quite a problem.

          Thus my comment on how to stop a vehicle in such a way as to disable it and bring them under fire. Thus the question of Friend Vs Foe ID.

  43. Our Patriots have had many discussion on this topic. Here, at home, we care for one individual who is disabled to the point of no help only liability. But, he’s family, and has put in money towards the groups survival. Also, we support 3 infants, under 2yrs old. One of use has suffered polio, he can walk and shoot, but bugging out, no way.
    Hence my handle. “Stand my Ground.” We decided to hold our position. We will use any necessary force, including deadly, to protect this homestead. We have set up secure defense positions, listening post outside of the perimeter. Shooting alleys. We have many yards of razor wire growing in side of wild rose bushes. There are 21 shooters, all experienced, Ex Seals, LEO, retired Marines and Army, Navy corpsman and a couple of good old boys. 1 AMA doctor and 2 Emts, level 1, 1 nurse practitioner. A sniper from the Sand box, and 4 Vietnam vets. Were covered.
    I am the owner of this homestead, and I know our security, but am not in charge of it. I did leave a whole bunch you, but you on here know how to read between the lines. I pray every night it never comes to that. But I know, My Heavenly Father is not gonna hold blame for me defending my family. Some prayers have been answered, I know my duty to family.

      1. Yep I heard that one before.. But we need to prepare. None of what I wrote happen over night. I took years to put together. When the time comes, it’s already to late to start. Plan and prepare now, while we still can.
        I let some of that info out here, to show and help everybody see what I think needs to be done. It’s, unfortunately, not a secret in my community where I stand. To many yrs standing up for my rights, it’s just the way it is.

  44. We are pretty far away from everything so my biggest fear is my neighbors. Everyone working together is a great idea but there is always those who believe you should share because they have nothing. They are spending their $ on fun stuff while I work. Sometimes I feel like chicken little. I am hoping when the shtf they might start to realize that no work means no food. That will help with most.. And after reading an article about new happenings that may not be to far away!

  45. Wood, thus the idea of getting community organizations, volunteers, etc. involved for the good of the community. .Gov will eventually be maxed out. I guess the idea is for communities to pull together and pull through. Like someone recently said, make do with what you’ve got. Of course that scenario will be influenced by the socio-economic factors of the surrounding area. And may not necessarily be feasible at all in some areas. If community cashes are available, this may help to reduce to the golden horde to a more manageable golden few. Speculation of course .

  46. Before tossing food from a vehicle, assess the situation, and if you determine that that course of action would be too dangerous, then by all means, don’t!

    1. CR hope you’re doin well
      Please consider the notion that any group of hungry people will be dangerous. Fair number of em likely to have a gun…..

  47. Ken,
    Care to talk about Pain Field Generators???? Acoustic ultrasonic carrier wave, heterodyned signal. NDS?

    1. Pain Field Generators? birdshot or 22 to the shins? Red Neck version :-) and about the decoy truck throwing food out I would not want to assign that duty to anybody in my tribe. Very Unlikely that driver will survive.

  48. Part of being invisible for a single person or a person alone is to blend in and have a secured home. I am going to become an apartment prepper and will blend in with 200 plus other units. My curtains will be neutral, and I wear neutral clothes outside. There is enough space in the condo apartment to store supplies. Ring numbers are listed with the surname, not the apartment unit number. I really wish they would not put the surnames at all in the vestibule. Basement lockers are often covered in shower curtains to hide the contents. Storage ottomans are good as they can hide supplies. Also suitcases on wheels are easy for seniors to move around – and can hide non perishable goods in the closets. At least one woman who lived alone was murdered by Russell Williams, the Canadian military commander. Many women like the safety of apartment condos.

  49. For those who think they will shoot first ask questions later remember what Ferfal said, The police will not be there to protect you but they will be there to prosecute you!

    1. So let me guess, you are going to negotiate with an armed group that is intent on borrowing everything you own?

  50. When I came back in 70, my girlfriend now wife said I changed that I no longer laughed and I was cold. It stays with you.

    1. My step son asked how I got PTSD. I told him I see dead people, many times a day and every single day.

  51. There is a storm coming. Please keep stacking and packing. Family is everything. God bless you all. This is a great site. Thanks to all of you.

  52. I have read through these replies and while some have merit some are a bit farfetched. First off, the Golden Hoard, it is heresy to counter the claims of the “Golden Hoard”. Well this heretic can be racked and burned at the stake or pummeled on this discussion board but I don’t think much of the “Golden Hoard” theory. Why is this you ask well last October I spent 20 days driving around north Berks County and South Schuylkill county of Pennsylvania. In 20 days I put 2,000 miles on a rental car covering some of the most remote areas just 80 miles north of Philly, 30 miles west of Allentown. In a grid down EMP/CME event Before the “Golden Hoard” will leave the Cities, it will be too late for most of them. No one wants to leave their place that is comfortable (they are familiar with and safe there or were) until it is almost too late. They will be waiting for a government to show up that won’t come to rescue them. Remember the rule of 3? 3 days without water 10 to 20% will be dead within 7 days if they do not get help. Another 20% will be dead within 4 weeks from starvation and a lot of that will include your gang bangers they are going to protect their turf and fight it out with other gangs and when they realize what is happening it would be almost too late for many of them. Many people in the city only have the minimum of food and supplies in their apartments. hell, here where I live after work the restaurants are filled, at the grocery stores you can see men and women racing around to buy tonight’s dinner. Once the magnitude of the situation hits them it will be too late. Many people don’t have vehicles in the larger cities, they rely on public transportation.
    Secondly no one has broached the subject of force multipliers, Oh yes it was alluded to on one or two replies but how many of you have gone to Lowe’s, Home Depot, True Value or Ace hardware stores and purchased 8” by 2” threaded steel pipe nibs and caps? Drill a 1/8-inch hole in the center stick in some cannon fuse that you can buy at any hobby shop and fill with black powder, Sulphur, Saltpeter and powdered charcoal. Cut 2 inches of the fuse and test how long it takes to burn. Forget the WWII type Molotov Cocktail if you mix battery acid, homemade napalm and an igniter source so you won’t set yourself on fire. Do you have a way to launch them, Bungee cords and a bucket to make a giant sling shot, call it artillery if you want? The VC had an interesting thing called punji stakes well boards with 4-inch nails work nice. Most of the gang bangers will be wearing their Air Jordan’s.
    As for a Ghillie suit and sitting in the woods making like a bush maybe 50 years ago but jumping out of
    C-130’s and Huey’s and running around Ft. Bragg and other vacation spots around the world have taken their toll on my old body. I’m a realist if TEOTWAWKI happens and I must defend my home from gangs or thugs (there is no running, hell not even walking for me my knees are shot and I need crutches to walk) I know it will be a DIP (die in place) situation. I just hope I can whittle enough of them down so my neighbors can finish them.

    1. All good points but I was not willing to discuss some of the ruder methods on a public board. As someone said about loose lips.

      That said while I agree that a lot of the Golden Horde is mostly fiction can CREATE them by bussing them out to “Safety” to be abandoned. Thus OUR Problem.

      1. Making active deterrents is not hard. But I think it will only work for a very short time. It will not take long for the badguys to start using captives to walk in front of them. I’d feel very bad about taking out some kids mom who was walking in front of the gang because they told her they would kill her children if she didn’t.

        It might be easy to pull the trigger on a MS13 guy coming up the driveway but how about a young mother with a babe in her arms? Then again, is she a scout for the gang?

        Yeah, I pray it holds together because I don’t want to have to make those kind of decisions.

        1. Ok, think about it for a minute, then visualize that beaner chick showing finger that im sure you have seen on the interweb,,,,
          Think about all the lying manipulative bleeding hearts in government,,, both elected and appointed, they can be oh so convincing when they bust out their boo hoo story face,,,,
          You gettin the point yet?
          IF and thats a big if and dependent on many factors, but IF it comes down to that kinda crap, are you really going to worry about others before yourself or your loved ones?
          Think a bit deeper if you still said yes,
          Personally, NOBODY comes before me or mine

        2. The young mother with a baby victim OR gang scout is why you need a Medical holding pen/isolation area for unplanned visitors. Sanitation reasons first if you bring in someone that is sick you expose your whole group to it. Not good from the medical point of view.

          Second holding them for 72 hours or so you can observe their actions and behaviors. Did she treat that baby as her own or a prop? Is she looking around for her peeps? Is she suffering from drug withdrawal or taking them from her own pockets? Behavior is hard to mask for 72 hours.

          lack of Sanitation and betrayal from with in has caused more castles to fall than siege.

    2. 😎👍🏻
      Excellent post Old Alaskan,
      Reality…… i like it.
      All the plans go out the window the first thing that doesnt go as planned, my guess is it will be about the first thing that doesn’t go as planned.
      City dwellers, are city dwellers, as you said, gang bangers will be too busy trying to gain dominance against eachother, look at chicongo for proof of that. The gubbermint, will be heartily occupied just dealing with the urban centers, it wont go well, not my problem, yes some people will leave but as you so well stated i doubt they will get far.
      People have all sorts of romantic fantasies of what they are going to do, what its going to be like etc etc…thats all it is, fantasy, truth is NOBODY knows anything about what, how, who,,,ALL just speculation. What happens in books, is just fiction, sensationalized situational fiction.

  53. OldA, good observations. Like nailbiter said, reality. Unless they have military training, most city dwellers will have no clue as to the what, where, when, why,and how of leaving , should the need arise.
    Should the need arise, those that have their wits about them and egress with nowhere to go will soon find themselves desperate for resources. Assuming these will probably be individuals and families, and scattered to the four winds. How could we ever let our citizens be untrained for just in case? Is it the height of irresponsibility?
    Sorry Ken, back to the thread. If FOP(forward observation post) indicates a threat, go dark, and turn on a dummy light away from the BOL, etc., to draw attention for your observation. This assuming that you have predetermined the incoming road, path, etc. to a chokepoint which you control .
    Western Europe is experiencing the Golden Horde that Eastern Europe experienced in the 13th century. A difficult situation indeed. They say, you and your allies bomb us, we’ll do better than that. We’ll invade you and take over your countries. And they are.
    Some European countries have redirected by various means. Something as simple as a fence. A deterrent for some, but by no means, not all.

  54. Not a good idea to say where you live even on a board like this.’ I live in a barn on the edge of town with the windows painted black’ is enough information to tell SOMEONE who you are. Don’t do it.

  55. Since I belong to a church known for prepping I assume my unprepared neighbors would be over to find out just what food storage I have in a shtf situation. As far as distracting a golden horde I kinda thought maybe a still might come in handy. Turn that corn someone mentioned buying, earlier in this post, into some moonshine and leave a barrel of it a couple miles down the road. Then watch from a distance then come in with rifles and zip ties at first light. Take weapons, boots, zip tie hands and feet and then, if possible, Beyond that I’m clueless. I can’t see myself harming unarmed prisoner but couldn’t just send them down the road makes a find out later they killed friends are have them circle back and catch me and my family and be at their mercy

  56. Sorry for typo error, fat fingers. If shtf I might try for the border and get to Canada. Then again my wife is from Brazil, if things looked better there maybe bug out to Brazil

  57. I have mentioned it a while back but I wanna remind folks. I feel confident one of the biggest threats in this situation will be the Golden Horde of feral dogs. People won’t be able to feed em and might think it’s a good idea to turn em loose. These dogs will be just like these gangs some people envision, they will band together, they will be hungry, they will have very little if any fear of humans, and what one does, most of the others will follow. Pack Mentality, it even exists in humans. It is very real and extremely dangerous. That would be one of my biggest concerns if I were near a populated area. There appears to be a lot of dangerous dogs in the hood in the hands of thugs.

    On another note, some countries consider dogs a delicacy. With a trap they might help alleviate some people’s food problems. Dangerous dogs will have to be killed anyway, no options. If they aren’t killed it won’t be long till new generations of dogs appear that will grow up to be worse threats. Gestation period for a dog is around 63 days. it will happen before you know it…… You can’t eat a dog.??……….your perspective might change when you get hungry enough…………

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